One could argue the mertis or lack thereof, of owning your home outright or having it mortgaged. It is a complex debate in the US, with very legitimate arguements on both sides of the debate.
Notwithstanding, as prior commentors have pointed out, the total amount of mortgage indebtedness in the US is a staggeringly large number, and the vast majority of homeowners do have a mortgage of some amount on their home. Irrespective of which way you would vote, for mortgages or against, I would have to conclude that one who is disinclined to get involved with someone who has a mortgage on their property is simply not coming to grips with the reality of life in the US. Mortgaged to the gills, the equity in most homes in the US exceeds the total value (unincumbered) of any property in a 3rd world country which is twice as nice.
I own two vacation properties outside the US. I paid cash. But you would be SHOCKED at the short money I paid for places along very nice beachfronts in places just a little bit out of the way. $30,000 USD went a long way a few years ago. And now, if I repatriated that money, because the USD has gone to "hell in a handbasket," it would buy a LOT of US dollars.
harantis-- I really agree, about an interim step. A pleasant job that builds language skills would be ideal. Maybe something simple, to start with, but not unpleasant like McDonalds’s would be. Rather, something like Starbucks. Or the perfume counter at Macy’s. Or a woman’s clothing store. Something to, like you said, get started.
Of course, she will do much more than this with her life-- she won't be working at the Starbucks counter for her life. She can do much more. But, it is a perfectly reasonable place to start.
You asked about my impression of there being an absence of this thought pattern in the culture.
From what I observed, it is so hard to get ahead through honest hard work in Ukraine. In America, one can go to school --even a community college—and do well there, then transfer to a University—and do well—and upon graduation find a good job that can provide for yourself and family. Hard work at university can translate into good grades, and a good job, and a future for oneself and one’s family.
In Ukraine, it seems these steps just are not there. One can work so very hard at University, and graduate at the top of their class—and it doesn’t mean anything. It doesn’t mean there will be any opportunity waiting for them upon graduation.
It isn’t like that in America. You can work hard, go to school, get good grades, get a good job. But, it is 100% serious that in Ukraine, if you have some money, you can just buy the university degree. No joke—you can just buy the ‘top of the class’ position. Though—you would do this only for technical reasons—because unlike having a 4.0 GPA at a good school in America, being top of your class at a university in Dnepropetrovsk gets you nowhere.
I have observed that people in Ukraine perceive that those who have money in their country, have not gotten it the ‘right’ way. That is, they didn’t go to school, get a good job, and build a career and future. Rather, those with money got it through back channel deals, bribery, and ways that we would believe to be ‘non-traditional’ at best—if not downright criminal.
I mean, the current giants of the FSU, the oligarchs, came from a fusion in the early 90’s of the criminal element and the legitimate authorities, in collusion with the police. Money was not created through a job and career, but rather through deals that are very sketchy, at best.
So, maybe that shapes cultural views. If you have lived in a country where hard work at university gets you nowhere, where hard work as a nurse will earn you $80 per month and an early grave, where there isn’t a career path of opportunity—then perhaps one comes to view this work as a dead end that doesn’t build towards a future.
So, your question was, if in my opinion there is an absence of this thought pattern. Through discussion, I am beginning to say ‘yes.’ Do they see it like we do, where work is opportunity, and each lousy job can lead to a new job that is better than the last, and this is the path to building a future? It doesn’t seem like they do view it this way. It seems to me that this is not the path to a future in Ukraine. In Ukraine, hard work gets you old and tired. It does not get you ahead.
So, perhaps there is an absence of this thought pattern. Not because someone is lazy—but because of very relevant economic realities in Ukraine where work truly isn’t opportunity.
It is an excellent point about just how tricky this is-- absorbing deep and fundamental differences that have become part of the cultural fabric that someone from the former Soviet Union comes from.
Beemer18, you were wondering if it would be different, if a girl had already worked in Ukraine. Would her thoughts about equality be the same?
My girlfriend had worked in Ukraine. Or, at least, she felt she had. That is, she had a job at a record store, and put in very long hours. She worked very hard, for not very much money. But, the money she did earn was 100% disposable. It was cash that went for her discresionary purchases. So, this was actually worse. She felt that she had worked—she felt she knew what it meant to work. But, because she hadn’t worked to provide for her fundamental living expenses, she didn’t know what it meant to work to provide for oneself—but thought she did.
The conclusion I came to was that, for me, I really needed to find someone that had worked, and had provided for their own home. However, it is so very rare for a single woman to ever have lived on her own in Ukraine. Women frequently don’t move out from their family homes until they become married. So, a single woman that had lived on her own would be rare.
So, what about a woman that had worked to provide for her home while she had been married? Perhaps a young woman that had become divorced, and could appreciate the realities of marriage, and the economic realaties that came from working to provide a home for herself and husband.
That sounded good. For my 4th trip to Ukraine, I had this very much in my mind. That I was interested in someone that had this life experience, of working to pay for one’s own way in the world, and could therefore appreciate how wonderful it is to have a partner that helps with this, and contributes very much to this.
It is what I wanted. After 45 days there, I didn’t find it at all.
My question on a girl already working in Ukraine was for a girl working in her'career
path, as it may be in Ukraine standards. After a girl leaves university, she must be getting a job somewhere and doing that for some length of time(before she meets her western guy). I was not talking about working at a record shop( talk about dating yourself, Jonny).By the way how is Rip Van Winkle. :)))
Have you heard of 'Music Store', don't need to say CD shop. You could be 33 going on 83, for all you have been through in your search of the world, leaving no stone unturned!!!!
So what about the 'career type girl', did that go out with the 'record shop'?
Jonny is a "youngin." I can remember when they use to call the refrigerator an "ice box." I remember when cars had chokes and a three-speed on the column. I remember when gasoline had lead in it, and when they refered to margarine as "oleo." Holy Toledo ! I'm a crusty old fart ! Ain't I ?
I had a car with with a choke and a 3-speed column shift. I paid $300 for it.
A 1962 Ford Falcon Stationwagon.
It had been sitting for years when I bought it. After driving it for a day, I heard little noises in the back. I stopped the car, took up the rear seat-- and I learned that my car had mice.
MICE.
Ok, I am now SO OFF TOPIC.
sorry. couldn't help myself. 3-speed, column shift....with a choke.
Stick with just being an old fat!!! You bring in crusty and it sounds.....overdone!!!
I'm almost 50 and I don't remember much of what you guys are talking about. I think I remember reading something about that in a history book. I think I am 50 going on 30!!!!
I am like a fine, I mine fine... wine!!!! :))))
FWIW you guys might like to consider a couple of factors you may or may not be aware of. The person who has gained her qualifications legitimately, which will be the majority you'll come across, because if she is in the financial position to "Buy" her qualifications, she is much less likely to be in the MOB scene, will have worked hard for that and has her dream set much higher than then "Shop Seller" type of work.
She may be able to do little else in the early stages in a new country, but this is not going to sit well with her ego. Many in Russia and the FSU consider the "Shop Girls" to be at the looser end of the market. (Of course this is not always the case) Most FSU girls are very concious of this and may struggle with that idea, even if it is an interim measure.
The other person is the one who has already established a career of some sort, therefore moving into "Shop" work will be demeaning to her. You should be gearing everything in the early stages in order to help her become the same person as she was in her native country. Formal language studies ARE and MUST be the first priority if she is not well skilled in this area. To do otherwise is a temporary liberty and a long term jail.
The would be husbands role in this pursuit becomes much more complex than in a domestic marriage. You will cross over between being Lover, Father and Financial Manager. 'Tis how 'Tis.
Women, and FSU women in particular are afraid of debt (Mortgages) however, you will find the majority are somewhat commerically aware and if you spend the time, which you should, before the K-1 stage, you will find her receptive to explanations of your real financial situation. You should be spending the time to explain everything carefully to her in the first instance. You have this opportunity BEFORE you bring her to your country. Her response to these discussions will tell you a great deal about the type of person she really is. You want a partner first, babies can come later..:-)
IMHO if you can't have in depth discussions of this type, for either language or personal reasons, frankly, you shouldn't be considering marriage. It WILL get a lot harder than these sorts of discussions later.
You touch on points I think many do not consider. In the early stages of her arrival you will be everything to her. Though I didn't have much of a problem explaining and having her understand the mortgage issue. These are thing we discussed way before she arrived in the states. Along with doing everything else you will have to control the adjustment of status and all the other things that go along with immigration(At least in the States) The language is a huge issue and she should be somewhat proficient before she arrives. For guys in the states, check you local Bureau of Motor vehicles and see what their law is on international licenses. In Indiana for example, it is valid for one year or until change of status whichever comes first. If your state is like that, get her driving lessons in her country and get an international license. It will save you a lot of grief trust me. She was excited to take driving lessons and even more excited when I brought the picture of the car I had bought her. Having mobility and not feeling in prison is huge for them.
Also the shop assistant issue is very true. My wife would rather dig ditches than be a shop assistant. So find out what fits in her background of education. Though I would not suggest throwing her in the work force right away. It can be daunting and overwhelming. Even for the very proficient in the language. The work ethic here is quite a bit different than what it is in Ukraine. So I would nudge them in slowy until they get used to the pace of work here. She is still in shock that there are only 8 paid holidays in the US. Far cry from the litany of holidays celebrated in Ukraine.
Along with financials which I discussed openly with my wife, one topic they don't like to discuss is life insurance. Though we did and she understands the situation and then has little issue with the mortgage because she understands that she will not be left with indebtedness. {Hmmm the borscht has been tasting funny lately?) These are real life things most in at least Ukraine do not understand in our world.
Along with that, if you haven't made provisions for her, of that will include a lot of your time early on. You might want to rethink this whole situation. Because the K1 process is the easiest thing you will have to do. Find things for her to do so she feels she is an active contributor to your new family, not just being a housewife. Teach her how to pay bills, checkbooks are foreign to most of them. Let her do the banking and miscellaneous errands that will help you out. I would add one things to I/O's Lover, Father and financial manager, you will need patience of a teacher, because you are going to be doing a lot of that in the near future.
I was lucky, my wife always dreamed of having a garden to grow vegetables and a flower garden, which due to the lifestyle in Ukraine and the city living she didn't have an opportunity to do in Mariupol. That kept here extremely busy in the summer and fall where boredom did not become a factor. I was lucky in the fact I had acreage to do this. Though don't overlook the things we take for granted where we live, just might be the thing she always wanted to do, no matter how mundane or simple it may seem to us. I hated gardening because as a child my father forced it on me and I never took an interest in my adult life. This last year it was a blast helping her. Don't overlook the simple things in life. My landscaping around my house has improved immensley due to womans touch and it was something I didn't have much interest in.
Research and prepare the way for her way before she arrives. Network in a community that speaks her language, find the Russian stores where she can buy the remedies and food stuff she needs for her daily life. Find Russian friends. Network here with guys that are bringing their fiances over or with one's that have current wives. She talks almost daily with three wives of former forum members here. I can understand their problem with hearing english all day long. Just remember the times you spent in her country and hearing your language was a great pleasure. Invite her culture into your home. In my case I married a Ukrainian so we celebrate her holidays and things of her culture. Though I went a little overboard, we have together remodeled our house into a very European style home. It was her dream to have such a home, so she became the General contractor and I became the Laborer. That was probably our salvation the first year. She had control of her dream for the first time in her life. If you are not willing to put yourself second in this relationship, you will never become first in her life. That doesn't mean you give up the things you enjoy, it means you must consider her first and all the things she gave up to be with you! I am humbled each morning I wake up next to her. Knowing that she gave up everything she knew in her life, family friends, job etc. just to be with me. It's a great motivator in life and it also makes you stop and smell the coffee.
That's why from time to time I hammer on the negative naysayers, hypocrites and frauds that come on this forum. I don't want to hinder one guy from taking the opportunity to find a fantastic woman. One that you enjoy being with every minute and hate the time you are away from her. I was never in such a relationship in my previous 48 years of life. Even if it's only 1% or 10% chance of finding a woman. It's well worth the adventure. I would do it again in a heartbeat and not give it a second thought!
Well Jonny, seems as if at 33 u know all about "working" to earn money the hard way by selling 5 rental properties to buy one in cash!
But it is not just money that women in the FSU don't appreciate. It's also administration and logistics.
I am British, live and work in Bucharest (Romania), own in my own right an old ruin I am doing up in Montenegro (formerly part of Serbia). To complicate things I own a UK registered car in Romania, have a French driving licence, and am setting up residency in Montenegro.
It seems to be to mind boggling complicated for women from the FSU to cope with.
They not only do not grasp residency/domicile/nationality that prevails throughout the rest of Europe, they also can't deal with the linguistic/legislation issues that arise from it.
In that sense women from the FSU are still quite uneducated and stupid.
You've IMHO pretty much nailed it. One small point of difference. Driving lessons. Depends where YOU live. See in the USA you drive on the right side of the road as they do in Russia, but here and some other places we drive on the CORRECT side of the road, so driving lessons in her own country will be counter productive. :-)
Yes you are THE teacher and to some extent always will be. However, I have some VERY STRONG advice regarding driving. DON'T BE her driving teacher. Your nerves won't stand it. LOL :-) My nerves still can't stand it.:-)
The life insurance thing is an important subject regarding financial discussions. She MUST understand that there is NO risk of her being left on "Struggle Street" if something were to go wrong in your life or health.
Nevertheless, we are drifting away from the original question to some extent and it is a question many of these guys will come up against I suspect. Perhaps to try to explain how she will think to an extent, it may go something like this. IF SHE IS A SERIOUS Russian/Eastern woman, she will have thought to some extent about what she will give up to find a foreign husband. Most men never have any grasp of this and I admit that I still notice things when I visit Russia and I am continually humbled by the magnitude of what she has foregone for me.
The serious women will have thought to some extent about this before they lodge a profile on the net or whatever, therefore, you need to get a grip on the fact that she has a hundred fears and questions which are far bigger than your 5k for the trip to meet her, thus she will not be too focused on thanking you for your travel efforts. She WILL come to understand all of this later. Most girls from the East have not travelled internationally and thus have little or no understanding of what is involved. One trip to your country and she will be thinking totally differently. But as with all things female, it will take her quite some time to compute and finally admit this. Women just think differently.
The younger girls might well have not thought about these things, thats youth and if you choose a young'un, live with the reality of the naunces from day one. The prettiest of the pretty can become awefully ugly when you simply have nothing in common, which may take some time to discover. God knows, I know, my first wife was a model and I had known her from the time we were teenagers, but it still took some years to realise we didn't know each other at all and worse, probably didn't want to know each other. We were just on two different pages of life. In fact, ultimately, we weren't even in the same book.
For all the fun, tough changes and a host of other things, the single thing which I still get the biggest kick out of is this.....I arrive home of an afternoon at times when mine has had something of a boring or quiet day and I watch her body language (Her body is still one of my favourite study points LOL) she is often quite stiff in the shoulders and stern in the face as I walk in and then, after a couple of minutes, I notice her relax and that warm hint of a Russian smile creeps onto her face and I notice the contentment in her eyes. The fact that I am the cause of that, is about the most fullfilling thing life can bring.
If you are frustrated by the fact that some are not showing a WOW factor because you travel to meet her, remember this is a very tough Row to Hoe for both sides and I am the first to tell anyone about the tough side and I tell it the way it is, but there is that other wonderful side that simply cannot be related in forums such as this. Guys, it is up to you, you will have to be "The Man" in all of this and take the lead and accept that you won't be thanked for everything, but if you do just that, the rewards are forever and ongoing.
Think carefully before you take another step. Nobody in these forums can teach you how to do it, but they can encourage you to start to THINK and once you start to think clearly about the issues, you are more than half way there.
I'm not trying to minimize the difficulties of transition by any means. But it does occur to me that at least here in the States, as of the 2000 census, 53% of the people who live in the States were born in another country. Many, many of those roughly 150 million people are from places far more backward than the FSU, and come with much less education and far larger lanugage barriers. It occurs to me that if you can't cut the mustard in the States as an immigrant with someone who loves you and is doing everything they can to help, you can't cut the mustard anyplace.
I gotta say, to some extent, I'd agree with you as my country is quite similar to the USA in many ways, although very different in some. We do have fairly straight forward systems and facilities, however I think you are missing one important factor. The "Sense" of near to home is much greater for a Russian woman relocating to someplace in Europe AND the European cultures are FAR closer to Eastern culture than are USA or Au cultures.
Another factor is the Citiscapes of Europe although very different from the East, again are far more similar to the East than the non European cities. A Russian woman will adapt a lot easier to European locations than she will to USA or Au. The open suburban sprawl is something you just don't see in Europe. The street/park social life they have there is something seen noplace else and it forms a big part of their daily life.
Forgive the crude analogy, but if you have led a pup which is straining at the leash and you drop the leash, the pup trips over its own feet at the freedom before it will gain it's own balance. It is not entirely dissimilar for a Russian woman who moves to the USA or Au. The sheer physical freedom is overwhelming for most in the first instance and they will take considerable time to find their feet, and some never do. Without you've spent time in Europe and more particularly, Eastern Europe, it is difficult to appreciate the vast difference.
Again, I wish my other half would expound on this, but she simply shruggs her shoulders and says, "Tell they, she need very be strong". :-) Typically Russian, she sees no point in wasting words. :-)
harantis,
You talk about 'cutting the mustard' in the USA but, along with what I/O makes a point of, much of it is geographical.
I've lived and worked in different countries and the incentive to live and work away from my own country was money thus, I guess, a similar incentive to many FSU ladies.
In 1989/1990 I went off to Australia to work for the Australian summer, not only was I avoiding our god awful winter back home but I was being paid a bucket load of money for doing it, I mean I couldn't even spend anywhere close to my daily living allowances never mind touch my salary back home in the bank but I was always conscious that I was about as far away from my homeland as it was possible to be and, despite the incentive of money, after 4 months or so I was ready to give that all up to go home.
Some years later I lived and worked throughout Benelux (Belgium, The Netherlands & Luxembourg) for close on 6 years whereas my homeland was only some 90 minutes away. Very rarely did I venture back to my homeland but the fact that it was there and available to me made all the difference.
I sincerely see the merits to your line of discussion.
Me, I've never been much of a sentimentalist. With the exception of three years living in Ireland, I've lived in the States my entire life. I've lived in all four corners of the States and few places in between. Home ... has always been where my heart was. Although I like to reminisce from time to time, all those places I use to live are simply places I use to live. They are no longer my home. Someone else lives there now. I hope those places and I hope those homes serve someone else as well as they did me. Their future is there. Mine is not. Now they are just places I use to live. As the saying goes, "you can't go back." The old neighborhood will never be what it use to be.
I've never lived in the past. Today, and what one makes of tomorrow are all that really matters. Perhaps that is a lot to ask of the more sentimental of the sexes.
Yes it is a lot to ask and in fact IMHO is too much to ask of a woman, particularly of an Eastern woman. Home will ALWAYS be where her blood family is. That is something you simply need to accept if you pursue a Russian partner. The difference between Eastern spiritualism and western pragamatism has been the subject of much discussion on various boards over the years.
This is almost a cross over into this area. Mine can slide under the radar as a local, but she will ALWAYS be Russian to the boot straps in her soul and I wouldn't have it any other way.