So, I'm just about 28. I've always been pretty successful with women, but I've always found myself feeling the women I dated were unfairly self centered and it always seemed to me that my generous nature and their self serving attitude always lead us to the same end. I've always held out that there are great US women, as my best friend married one (so far as I know), but they married young and she was a virgin. I've come to the conclusion at the end of yet another failed relationship that I stand a much greater chance finding a lifelong partner outside of the reach of modern feminism. I've watched my parents divorce, and then both remarry and divorce again... I'm not eager to experience that. So here I am, and I have some questions (I understand they are largely generalizations, but I'm just eager to hear others experiences/input):
Do scammers generally take the time to make highly personalized letters that address all my questions, or are they generally a vague response from some template?
When an FSU female moves to the US, do they generally start careers once they have adjusted? How well is their education/certifications/experience carry over into the US market?
I'm 28... and I look quite young at that. Seems only younger girls take interest in me. I have a hard time believing <20 could possibly work out, but it doesn't seem any women older than ~24 will even give me a glance... Am I too young for this yet, or will an early to mid twenties FSU female compare to a late 20's US female in terms of readiness and ability to settle down?
It makes it much more personal and concrete for me if we exchange some letters via handwritten LETTERS... whats the cost for her to send me something (a postcard, or a simple letter) and is it unreasonable to request?
There seems to be a growing Russian community in my hometown... how are all these young russians getting over here? I thought the VISAs were terribly difficult to get.
To be blunt, I haven't really heard or read much about how FSU women are when the bedroom door closes. I've heard that they tend to view sex and sexuality differently, and I've heard similar stuff about european women in general... So I guess my question is, do they tend to be more or less reserved? Does the classical complaint of US married men of "the sex stops after marriage" still apply? I've been with reserved US women, and wild US women, but the universal trait they shared was the attempt to use sex (or lack of) to control. Is this still a problem (or to what degree more or less)?
Is fidelity generally less of a problem?
Thanks for anyone who answers some of my questions... I'll post more as they arise.
Hi justanotherguy, my advice would be for you to get yourself a passport and get on a plane. I think you need to see the world and meet some 'european women' and see what the differences you talk about are for yourself. Your not too young for this but theres no hurry.
"Do scammers generally take the time to make highly personalized letters that address all my questions, or are they generally a vague response from some template?"
Most scammers have little patience and you'll notice that they seem to be talking right past you. They will profess undying love for you at about the 3rd letter, sometimes earlier. These are the so-called professional scammers, and are almost always men. They have dozens of "John's" on the hook at any given time and can't afford to spend time on your individual questions.
Then there are the bit scammers. They're a little craftier, and usually they're just trying to soak a guy for some extra cash. She will correspond with you for awhile, even answer some of your questions. But eventually the other shoe will fall, and she'll ask you for money. This might be because her mom is sick, or she needs to pay the rent, or whatever. When that happens it's time to say das vadanya to her, no matter how much you started to like her. These can be a little heart breaking. I corresponded with who I thought was a nice lady for a little over a month, and was really starting to enjoy myself. Then all of a sudden she needed money ASAP for an operation. When I stalled, she went off on me, called me a homo and all kinds of names.
You can avoid all of them by following the simple rule of NEVER sending money to a woman you have never met, no matter how heart breaking her story. The legitimate women have been coached by their agencies not to ask for money, so don't ever give them the benefit of the doubt. Also, most FSU women would rather starve than ask a man for money. Don't think that because they live in a poorer economy than you that they are looking to be rescued. These women are proud and not looking for handouts.
"When an FSU female moves to the US, do they generally start careers once they have adjusted? How well is their education/certifications/experience carry over into the US market? "
Head over to visajourney.com and do some searches there. Seems to me like it varies quite a bit. Some women want to come over and do nothing but stay home to raise the family. Others want to continue their career. For professional women such as doctors, lawyers, nurses, etc, it will take a lot of re-schooling. The education system in FSU is a lot different than the US, so they'll almost need to start over in many cases.
"I'm 28... and I look quite young at that. Seems only younger girls take interest in me. I have a hard time believing <20 could possibly work out, but it doesn't seem any women older than ~24 will even give me a glance... Am I too young for this yet, or will an early to mid twenties FSU female compare to a late 20's US female in terms of readiness and ability to settle down? "
You need to figure out what you want. You're 28 years old. Are YOU ready to settle down? Where do you see yourself 2-3 years from now? Do you see yourself with a 20-something Russian woman with a new born baby? Or do you see yourself traveling with your Russian lady around the world for a few years before settling down? Whatever you decide, it's important that you communicate this to your prospective lady. At 28, your age isn't going to matter much. But before you really jump in, take a good look at what you want and then find the lady that is compatible with those needs.
"It makes it much more personal and concrete for me if we exchange some letters via handwritten LETTERS... whats the cost for her to send me something (a postcard, or a simple letter) and is it unreasonable to request? "
Welcome to the internet my friend. :) Seriously, hand written letters are not going to be a realistic way to get to know your lady. It takes weeks for a letter to get through the Russian postal system, and there are times when it may never arrive. If you want to exchange the odd letter just to get the tactile sense of something physical from your partner, then the odd letter isn't too expensive for her. But most of your communication should be via email and phone if you really want to get to know her.
"There seems to be a growing Russian community in my hometown... how are all these young russians getting over here? I thought the VISAs were terribly difficult to get. "
They're not so much difficult to get, as time consuming. And Russians are VERY VERY patient. :)
"To be blunt, I haven't really heard or read much about how FSU women are when the bedroom door closes..."
This depends on the woman, not the country she's from. Not all Latina women are hot spicy sex machines, and not all Brits are cold fish. Russian women seem to have a similar attitude towards sex as many Europeans. But this is a generality. Your woman's upbring and personal history are going to have a lot to do with her sexuality, just like any other woman in the world.
"Is fidelity generally less of a problem?"
Again, this reflects the person not the culture. I read somewhere a few months ago that the divorce rates amongst K-1 marriages skew roughly the same as the average divorce rate in America. Human beings are flawed, no matter if they're Russian, Ukranian, or American. You will have to take your chances just like everyone else. :)
justanotherguy
To add to the good advice above.
You wrote,
"I've always found myself feeling the women I dated were unfairly self centered and it always seemed to me that my generous nature and their self serving attitude always lead us to the same end."
I think it is fare to say power and money has always been an aphrodisiac for women, just as good looks is an aphrodisiac for most men. I think you will find the same reaction from women where ever you go. It is easy to woo a woman with money, just as women with good looks easily woo men.
We should not judge women so harshly for doing what comes naturally to them ), or do we judge ourselves to the same degree for seeking attractive women.
It would seem to me if we can develope the relationship without the show of wealth and giving expensive presents etc, maybe the connection between the two has more foundation with natural attraction, chemistry, goals and ideas.
I would not agree entirely about jumping on plane and going. Experience is good, but in Russia there is very little english spoken. To land in that country without forward planning would most likely be disaster. If you know people in the Russian community, networking is a good way to meet a few Russian women. When you go to Russia, I would definitely learn as much of the language as possible before travelling. That way you will at least might be able to buy food and catch a plane. I would definitely arrange to be meeting someone on arrival, or go on social like Jet.
Thank you all for the replies... in response to some of the comments, more or less in order:
Ben and Jetmba: I've got my passport, and I've been to month or so stays in europe a few times (norway and italy), and I've been to japan, and I am impressed with the attitude of the women there. While I've never seriously dated any of them, I'd guess they make better wives.
Ulmo & Adman: I'd never hand money to a women I've never met. I don't even hand money to gf's. I have never even bought a girl a drink that I didn't already know well as friends, or was in a relationship with. Money is generally nothing more than a problem in relationships. I do well for my age and being "gold digged" is a particular sensitive area for me. That being said, I understand natural selection and I don't fault women for finding me more attractive with money and material goods than without (and I expect not to be faulted for looking at them when they dress to impress :), but there is obviously a fine line there and I'm aware and observant to ensure it isn't getting crossed. I'm fine with initially attracting a women with my success. The idea being that my success gets them in the door, and ME makes them stick around. I've watched too many friends and family get raped in divorce court to not be careful with the whole marriage thing. Speaking of, do they generally have the violent reaction to the idea of a prenup most US women do?
If you'd have asked me if I would be married by 28 5 years ago, it would have been a resounding yes. The reason I'm still single is solely because I will not settle for someone I don't think has my best interests in mind.
I figured any sort of US law specific cert is gone (and those professions regulated by US law), but what about college degrees? Are they generally excepted in the job market here? I work in the IA field and the majority of malicious hackers these days are from russia (and to a lesser degree china) so I know they are smart :)
I fully expect for 99% of the communication to be via email, but a single handwritten letter or so adds a level of depth that email just can't capture, I think anyway.
I understand that I'm asking for broad generalizations, but thats all I expect to get back... I won't be ranting here if whoever I meet doesn't fit those generalizations. Back on the subject of sex though, how appropriate is that to talk about via email with a lady? Also, could you elaborate on what you meant by having the same views on sex as other Europeans?
I'm learning the Russian language now, as well as I can on my own. I plan on being able to communicate enough to get in trouble before I go.
Thanks again for the responses, and I'm more than willing to listen to any other advice anyone has to offer.
"Back on the subject of sex though, how appropriate is that to talk about via email with a lady?"
I'm not exactly sure what you're asking here, but here's the thing. FSU women are intelligent, and while they might be a little charmed over westerners (just like we are charmed over them), they're not so different than you and I. If something would be taboo to write to an American or European woman, it would probably also be taboo to write to a FSU woman. Let the flow of your conversation guide you. If she's getting flirty with you, be flirty back. But above all be a gentleman. If you start getting too personal you're bound to put her off. Treat her like the lady she is and let her set the pace wrt intimate talk.
"Also, could you elaborate on what you meant by having the same views on sex as other Europeans?"
I just mean that the FSU women you are likely to meet aren't repressed sexually the way women might be in other parts of the world. (And I say "likely to meet" because there are Muslim FSU women who will have very strict sexual views, but you're not likely to meet them on a dating site.) Your average Russian woman and your average German, Italian, or Spanish woman would likely have very similar views towards sex. But again, it's all going to depend on your woman. She may come from a small village with very traditional values, and may be holding back until marriage. Or she might be very sexually active, or anywhere in between. There's just no generalization that's going to cover them all.
Having spent some time reading various threads on this forum, the general feel I get is most of them are at best looking for a free ride, and at worst are straight scammers; that the occasional real woman (who can't be found through an agency) will likely a) not want to leave her home, b) grow unhappy once in the US, or c) divorce and "upgrade"; that this is the most difficult, most expensive, and most risky means of finding a wife... if so, why are you all here? Is this just a vocal minority who got screwed in some way, venting in the forum?
How many of you are now actually married, happy, and in the US?
"How many of you are now actually married, happy, and in the US?"
If you think about it, that's not really a fair question, regarding the relative success or failure of those of us looking ofr wives in the FSU. Reason? Most of us who have succeeded and are happy and married in the US, don't tend to be here in this forum anymore. They generally move on to other endeavors - a notable exception is very knowledgeable nasfan6 who posts here with some regularity. (And he unbelievably sometimes gets CRITICISED for writing in this forum as a married man!)
LOTS of women of all types are found listed with agencies. There are literally tens of thousands of women listed with agencies. Its the hotties (the seemingly best looking ones) who have been listed for some times and who get all the letters that are sometimes less than real.
I hear a lot of comments about Ukrainian women who might be willing or are not willing to leave their country to be with a guy in HIS country. It must be remembered that maybe she IS willing to leave her home and family - its just possible that she isn't willing to leave it for YOU. What I mean is that if a Urainian (or Russian lady) really meets the one that she is madly in love with; meets the guy who is the be-all and end-all of everything that she is looking for; if the relationship is PERFECT all around - ithen its VERY likely she will leave her country to be with her real love. (Hell, I would TOO!)
But if she just likes you, and doesn't really have strong feelings for you - its unlikely that she will just jump country for the hell of it. She might very well be willing to leave her home country - just not for any Tom, Dick or Harry out there. These women are NOT DESPERATE (contrary to the belief of some here). And they are NOT desperate to leave their home country just to do it.
I know largely those who marry probably have little interest in posting in a forum anymore, but there seemed to be an overly negative tone in the forum. I guess I was more or less trying to figure some statistic about how this may work out or not.
As far as a girl leaving the country... I neither think they are desperate, nor have any delusions that I am anyone's savior... if anything, I'm hoping to find someone to save ME from the fate of my father and friends. That being said, I don't think I could leave the US... I couldn't imagine leaving my family behind to live in a foreign country permanently. Plus, I've got too much going right to leave. There in lies my disbelief that a woman would walk away from her entire world for a guy.
In my situation I am here simply because marrying the average local girl seems to be only a path to misery and financial ruin. I can attract top notch women here, so I expect to be able to do the same over there. While I can see the obvious dangers of a 5aw0 something trying to marry a 20 year old hot girl, does the same apply for a 20 something trying to marry a 20 something? I'm still a young guy, and as much as I'd like to say personality is all that matters I still have a ton of hormones to wear off (damn hormones >:( ) so I am really only interested in very attractive women in the physical sense. Before I get labeled as a pig or anything, consider that the reason I'm here in the first place is solely because the personality, values, and morality I am looking for I have been unable to find in women in the US. So I suppose the question here is: Are the majority of the "hotties" BS? I generally stay away from the ones with vast age ranges they are open to..
What is the average age & marriage history of guys doing this? I have the impression most are in their 40's and divorced.. is this inaccurate?
Suppose I started talking to a girl on an agency I now wish I should have avoided (too late now)... how can I determine whether or not she is legit? I noticed her photos had a caption of a studio. Google showed me they were taken by a photographer who's office is actually located in her home town. Her letters have thus far fully answered every question I've asked and could not have been part of a template. Would her agency have paid for professional photos? How can I figure out her local agency (just ask her?) In all honesty I'd like to just say "prove you are who you are before we proceed" but that would of course go badly... how do you tactfully say that without offending?
Justanotherguy...I think you think too much and overanalyze everything...... unless this is all information
for your 'production'.
Why do I think you are not seriously into foreign marriage? You sound like some reporter asking a lot of questions to fill a story??? At least your other thread you were upfront on your purpose.
Most are in there 40s and divorced. I can say in Australia, there is a real shortage of quality single girls aged 30 and upwards with no kids close to this age group.
Most women here in the 35 and up age group are divorced products themselves usually with 2 or more kids and the ex don't pay child support or very little and divorced men here do not really want other peoples children or take financial responsibility for someone elses kid thats not there own, it sounds unfair but there are a host of pyschological,emotional and financial issues here that most men can't handle...single mothers use there new male partners or boyfreinds as nothing more than "cash cows" so that there kids can get shit from the new man, which she herself can not afford to buy, often men get used up by our local single, divorced mothers.
This causes the older late 30s,40s and early 50s man to look overseas for girls because they are not happy with the available local product which comes with too many strings attached!
I should know, I had one of these "divorced single mother with kids" relationships after my divorce with a local woman and it did not last because of those issues...men don't want this kind of emotional, psycho, financial burden shit on them all the time...it kills the relationship, 9 times out of 10!
Don't think too much about the itty bitty details. Yes, many agencies will pay for professional photographs. These women are, after all, their "products." But that's inconsequential. If you want to know if you're being scammed, just wait for the request for money. It won't take long. 3-6 letters at most. But if she's answering your questions and engaging in the conversation, then go with it and have fun. Don't grill her, and don't try to guess her motivations. If she's a scammer her motivations will become clear very soon. Otherwise, enjoy yourself and get to know a woman from another country. Suspicion will only result in failure.
Relax, enjoy her company, and get to know her. If you are smart then everything will take care of itself. In that respect, it's no different than normal dating.
WRT the information you asked about average ages, again head over to visajourney.com and do a search. That's going to be a good website for details like that. If I recall correctly, there was a poll done some time ago in the Russia forum, and the results surprised me. A lot of guys in their 20's and 30's, many less older men than I would have thought. The age gape was a lot narrower than many would have you believe too. You're also more likely to hear about success stories over at visajourney than you are here. Quite frankly this forum is filled with a lot of bitter people and people who just like to argue. They tend to drown out the success stories.
Tactfully? First question, how attached is she to the agency? Do you have her personal information? Phone number, home address? This is a start. You can still communicate via the agency with letters, but it would be time to move to another form of communication away from agency influence. I've found through my own experience and experience of other married guys from here, the ladies like a guy who will take charge of things related to their relationship. Schedule your own plane fares(common sense) arrange accomodations for your meeting. Communicate off email, see if she has a friend that speaks english that can translate for your communications, or do some research here for guys who have found girls in your locale that can help you with the communication.
Plant the seed that you don't want to use the agency to hold your hands. Not that you're being cheap, but you have a better way to use your money than giving to an agency that really doesn't have both your interests at heart. Use it for other things. Example in the early conversations with my wife, the agency sent me a fee example of for the use of their translator in Kiev. It was around 100 bucks a day plus room and board. So in essence 200 a day just to keep round figures. For our 5 day meeting in Kiev that would have cost me a grand extra. I told her I have a better idea for the use of the money for us to enjoy and with the help of some guys here I found a lady that would interpret for a hell of a lot less and give a great tour of her city for 40 dollars. We had a hell of a great time in Kiev, didn't use the agency services and did things that we wouldn't have done because a third person involved. It impressed my wife that one, I was clever with my money, two I wasn't cheap because you can do and see alot of interesting things with an extra grand. So we hopped a couple of planes and saw other places in Ukraine.
We both worked at communication with each other, since my Russian was limited and her english was limited, but it worked out wonderfully. One thing I learned was don't lose control in this. It's your time and your money. You can do that in a tactful way. Study the place she wants to meet. Learn some of the places of interest you want to see. I wanted to go to St. Sophia's Cathedral and the WWII monument in Kiev. She will have places she wants to show you also. If she really interested, she will want to show you her countrys history and experience her culture with interest. Discuss these things ahead of time during your correspondence. Then discuss away from the agencys influence how you want to go about doing this.
You will learn that agencys DO NOT have your meeting in your and hers best interest. It's just a revenue source for them. If she won't leave the agencys influence then that will have to be your call whether to carry on with the meeting or not. My experience and experience of others is you won't accomplish much with the agency there at your side. The will continue to tell her to write others to keep the money machine flowing and once you guys committ to each other if that happens, the agency will drop her like nuclear waste. They will intentionally try to sabotage your relationship. If you have another line of communication open you will be able to talk these things over with her without the agency influence.
If she speaks english well then you will have the battle won. If she doesn't find out if any of her friends do. Learn who her friends are in your conversations, show interest in wanting to meet her friends and family. If she doesn't want to do that, that to me would also be a red flag and the continuance of your communication with her is going to end in a frustrating failure. Though my wife and I met in another place besides her home city, we eventually traveled to her home city on our first trip to meet her friends, after she was comfortable I wasn't wasting her time and had an interest in her. Her Mom was in Switzerland visiting her sister, but she called her Mom and told her she had met a good guy and I wanted to meet her when she returned.
Keep control of your relationship and meeting and things you want to do in a subtle way. In the long run she will feel comfortable coming to a strange country because you show iniative and control of yourself and guidance. She will feel comfortable that you are strong and able to make decisions on your own. My wife through the hollywood boob tube machine, thought most American guys were a bunch of Momma's boys that couldn't make decisions on their own. That we were indecisive and couldn't make quick rational decisions. Just another myth they have about us like we do of them.
At the end of the day common sense always dictates, there is no guarantee in this venture, but I feel personally, that your own initiative and keeping control of your finances and decisions with her will greatly improve you chances and eliminate the chance of being a victim of a scam like many others have had. Yep there are scammers but with your own good judgment and help with others from here and other sources not only will your trip be hassle free, but their is a good chance you will meet an intelligent and classy and wonderful lady.
Nasfan... thanks for the good advice. Recently ended my last round with a US girl, and I think I've had my fill for this life. Hopefully I figure out where this marriage abroad thing is going soon. I haven't asked for any personal info yet, though I will soon. I think I located her "root" agency. Hopefully my emails actually made it to her and vice versa.
beemer: I'm not serious because I ask too many questions? I'm not sure I agree with that. Certainly I will ask MANY questions for such a MAJOR life decision... anything less I would consider a lack of sincerity.
I think beemer's just saying (like I did) not to sweat the details. If you interrogate her, even to protect yourself, then you'll lose her. As I said before the scammers will make themselves known, and quick. They don't need your help to be revealed. Approach each woman with sincerity and with the attitude that she is for real. You'll be much more successful that way.
justanotherguy.....general questions are the norm before you go at least once. The more detailed questions come up during and after a trip. It almost sounds paranoid to be asking detailed questions that answer nothing you have experienced. Many questions may be answered while there. If you are serious you will move slow in this process. I have no idea why you are asking about fidelity and FSU girl coming to US...been more than year for me and I am just trying to understand new language and culture, let alone finding the right girl. Every post here tells of individual experiences, yours will be different, just remember things and use them when needed.
Theone thing that sticks in my mind is the money drop scamm. I learned here what happens and what to do. For those that have never experienced this: a guy walks past you real fast and drops a wad of money near you.(Don't touch it). Another guys come by and picks it up and you a guy go give it to back to guy that dropped it. Within a few seconds a policeman comes by. And tell you to stay while he finds out what happens. The guy that drops the money now claims he had 2 wads. So the guy that picked up money shows his money to cop. Now they expect you to show your money to prove YOU didn't pick up other wad....that is where you will lose money or go with cop to policestation. When it was time to see my money...I walked away and told cop..lets go to police station and write up a report...they vanished. This also happens with a prostitute...don't stop to talk to her!!!!! Cop is just around the corner!!!