Much has been said recently, and over the years, of the proper amount of time or methods to get to know someone, establish a relationship and be positive about it. I must say I have my share of experiences over the years. Sometimes it is easy to tell from the start. And mostly that means not really a chance. Other times there could be hope that it may work. And you move forward pursuing it. Then, only to discover months or years later you made a mistake. There are the rare circumstances when you have an immediate sense of wow! I think I have discovered something special and rare itself. Sure, I was clowning but truth is I am very level headed. I am not a pig as may have come across. Though it would be hard to convince otherwise. I just got caught up in some of the silliness.
All joking aside, I believe I have discovered someone very rare and an exceptional person. And whatever method I choose or however long I decide is the right amount of time is up to me. I know enough already to be very comfortable with my decision. Things no one else knows. Or should know. Though I shared a lot there are many more private and very personal reasons I feel comfortable with how this is going. If I get burned in the end. Okay. I took a gamble. To hear someone tell you her friends and family are telling her she is making a mistake because she will be treated as a second class citizen.... blah-blah-blah
We will be together for a week every five weeks or ten until the official process takes shape. I feel already I know this person better than I knew my ex-wife. So why wait? Jump in and find out I say. To me is better than still sifting through a handful of ladies for several years. If this fails, I will go fishing and play golf. If I am right, then I took a chance and it paid off big time. I'm betting on the second.
So there are opinions of what is the right way to do this. Since it is all very new to me I'll just dive in. Maybe I'll get smacked in the ass or maybe I will be rewarded for not waiting. Only time will tell. Who knows, in a month or two she may change her mind. That is life. She may change her mind in three years. Life goes on. I may change my mind. Truth is, if all goes well ...
As for the K-1 visa being a means to get to know one another, it is true. And also as an opportunity to discover what it is like in another country for her. Why go on becoming more attached and only to discover that she actually hates it here? Find out sooner rather than later seems to me to be a logical approach.
Thanks for listening and for your opinions either way.
Here are just my thoughts and my own personal experiences. You will have some who will tell you how many trips you must make or how many years you need to wait. But it really is on a case by case basis.
From my own experience, you can not "make" a relationship. If the person is not the best person for you from the outset, there is nothing that you can do to make it happen. I have learned this personally.
What I am finding interesting with an international relationship is since we can not be physically with each other, our hormones do not do all the talking and we are forced to converse about everything else. What I tell people is that we are doing a relationship in reverse. We first get to know each other and can determine with a level head if there is a match on paper and then we physically meet and determine with our hearts if there is a physical match.
What I meant by the K-1 process, is that the long delays with that, just allows more time to get to know each other and to prepare both parties for the new life with each other. So we can not just jet over to Vegas and get married. We are forced to wait and can only continue to converse and know more about each other.
Of course a marriage will take a lot of work and if both parties agree to put all of their energies into it, and doing so comes naturally with no hesitation, then that relationship has a good chance.
You can only have one wife and you can, like some, continue to shop around forever. But yes, if you come across a person who meets all of you criteria and you meet theirs and all the stars line up, then I say yes, make a decision and go for it.
And I agree, I feel I know more about my RW than I did with my ex or XYL, being my failed two previous serious relationships. I have purposefully broached subjects that were never discussed in my earlier relationships and we have spilled our hearts to each other. We both are constantly challenging the relationship to ensure it is what we want. We both have come close to maybe calling it off but eventually we decide to stay together.
So in conclusion, there is no proper way. There is only your way.
Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
1) It is not possible to know another person completely. Even if you think you know someone well for 10 years or more, there can be big surprises in store.
2) It is not possible to eliminate risk. People whose careers center on managing risk (for example, airline pilots) study and prepare, understand what they can control and take all prudent measures, and then accept that things beyond their control can spoil the plan.
3) On my last day in this world, I would prefer to regret the great things I tried to do and failed, rather than the things I didn't attempt.
4) Visas to the U.S. are very tough to get for people from the FSU. This being said, I've seen a few dozen profiles on various websites (out of thousands) of women who have traveled to the U.S., and these ladies have some picture of life in America. For the vast majority, coming here on a K-1 visa would be their first chance to understand it. Even for someone who is well educated and has studied life in another country, there is still a culture shock when you arrive. K-1 is where the rubber meets the road.
5) Deciding to marry a local woman is risky, too. The fundamental challenges of relationships are the same, domestic or international. An international marriage involves spending a lot of money up front, and the thought of the marriage being a sham or crumbling is distressing in all sorts of ways. But a typical American divorce often involves a lot of pain and anguish, and the loss of a hell of a lot of money (for the man).
I think your doing just fine and I would go with your instincts. BUT ... keep in mind the cultural differences, most notably that she won't consider herself to be exclusively "yours" until the ring is on the finger. Her mindset will be that you could fall through at any moment no matter many times you've told her you are "serious" so if a better/more-certain deal comes her way she'l think seriously about it. Don't get paranoid but be alert to the signs that she's meeting other men, most notably being out of phone contact for any appreciable length of time (e.g. more than 24 hours).
What is it you want to accomplish in life? Is it the same as hers? If not, get in sync. The main point here is to stay together the rest of your life. Tell her that every chance you get. Find different ways to tell her.
If you can dream -- and not make dreams your master;
If you can think -- and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two imposters just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools;
Compatibility – that’s the main ingredient to success.
Don’t fool yourself that it will come later and develop with time – especially if you are trying to build it with someone from another nationality !!!!
A good FSU women will give back many times more than you give her – if she does this/that – then you are onto a winner. You will feel that and see that very early on if you are onto that winning one ??
Peter, You are right on the money!! Compatibility is the key issue, everything else will work itself out. About an FSU woman giving back many more times than you give, well there is some truth to that. Though I wouldn't advise anyone to take advantage of that. They have long memories.
They also are not weak and run to the medicine cabinet for the daily zanax or other miscellaneous medications given to the west when times become troubled. My only regret is I wish I would have found my wife 20 years ago.
Julian: “Proper” ways have been debated ad nauseam. There is no right way but perhaps there is a few obvious wrong ways. You be the judge. FWIW I’ve always felt and it was our experience that the strength of a relationship may be more fully projected after a significant disagreement.
LOL - Mike
Lena and I were just talking about that medicine/mental issue 2 days ago !!!!
You are so right - women and a few men also in the West will always look for something to blame or rely on to make excuse or help them think will pull them through, something that these women wouldn't even batter an eyelash at !!!!
Yes - ditto the 'wish it happened 20 years ago" we have built so much in 4 years - heaven only knows what we could have built if started 20 years prior !!!
We are about to embark into something that will involve FSU and NZ. Lena will be a key issue in its running and it something we can both do until we drop, so here is to another 20 years of building - and not to mention Tax deductible airfares and expenses with Ukraine/Moscow visits :-)
Julian while I feel it is important to get to know someone before taking a big important step like getting married, personally I feel there is a lot to said for just following your instincts. I think deep down they will tell whether or not this girl is right for you or not. If it feels right go for it. What works for someone else may not work for you. I personally don't really agree with what some guys on here say about you having to go and visit her 100 times until you decide to have her come and live with you in your country. It seems like a bit of overkill to me. You (hopefully) will have a whole lifetime to get to know one another anyways.
Just my thoughts Julian. BTW I enjoyed your trip stories.
good stuff, thanks for the words of encouragement, and the words of wisdom and caution,
I have made enough mistakes in the past and have been disappointed many times, partly my fault - actually mostly my fault for a few reaasons. one I just accepted some things I didn't like or was not happy about - I should have challenged - I am a placater. Two - sometimes I just refused to see the truth - I let sex rule the brain. Three - I didn't see the big picture and focused on my likes rather than dislikes (see one and two). Four - sometimes I was just a stubborn ass with a low tolerance for a woman being a woman. And it goes on...
As my ex future father in law told me while we were playing golf at an exclusive club in Palm Springs, 'just let them do what they want' -- very rich man talking about his daughter. But I was frustrated with the ridiculous and in hind sight, trivial bullshit. I learned a valuable lesson (see number four). If I could have been less critical, I wouldn't have to work now. But would I have been happy??? don't know. So now I don't let the small stuff bother me. And to tell the truth, glad I waited until now to realize this. Because now I challenge and it is appreciated, welcomed and expected. Interesting. I have already had a hint of anger from the RW. And I have no doubt that there is a wolverine inside that sheep's clothes. It will be a challenge, but one I am ready for.
"I have no doubt that there is a wolverine inside that sheep's clothes"
Nice metaphor!
In my (as yet) small experience with women Over There, I have had a few similar impressions, of women who are look calm and sweet to the world, who can become fierce quite suddenly...
I suppose that this has a lot to do with how hard life there is for most people. I am amazed again and again by the strength of women in Russia and Ukraine. Usually, they must work very hard, endure many discomforts and privations, and protect themselves and their children in environments with criminality and exploitation that (thank God) I've never had to face here in America. It is simply understood that there are people trying to rob and f**k you over at every turn.
When Russian women think that some kind of cheat is going on, they are not shy about confrontation! I once had a quite nice experience of this -- I had a very long wait at an airline office, and I was quite anxious (pressed for time), when a man who had come in after me "cut in line." My Russian language wasn't enough to deal with the situation, and I was thinking "oh well, another 15 minutes lost," when a very nice middle-aged woman who had seen this sharply rebuked him -- he obviously wanted to argue with her, but she was forceful enough that he let me go before him.
Unfortunately, the climate of Russian culture breeds a lot of suspicion. People from that part of the world are so used to expecting that someone will take advantage of them, it may happen (not rarely) that she'll believe that you're wronging her, even when your conduct is pure. I also have experienced this -- I did something strictly to be kind and decent, knowing that my Ukrainian woman friend wouldn't like it (she was in a huge dispute with the other person involved). My action had absolutely no benefit to me, I can tell you. But she not only was sure that I had some dark motive, she told me that she talked this over with her Ukrainian and Russian friends who also thought that I had some base or selfish purpose. Oh well.
Heaven help the man who seriously messes over one of these women: hell hath no fury!
Since I first posted this... It is quite possible I have hit the lottery. That astronomical chance of finding a needle in a field of haystacks. Details to follow ten years from now.
mr. I will contact in Kiev.
beemer, sorry 'the trip' was disjointed and confusing. it was difficult, to say the least, to capture all and in a sequential time line. there is a difference in early part of trip and real part of trip. I explained that I went in with zero knowledge and fell into a circumstance that was alien to me. and I got myself out of it quickly. but yes, the grunts... were from a different aspect of it. though there were language struggles in the second 'part' of the trip. I assure that there was very much understanding and communication was understood completely.
forgot why I started this,,,
K-1... "where the rubber meets the rosd"... "a chance to get to know..."
I find it interesting that many think it is possible to really know someone if you haven't actually lived with them, or observed them on their own turf. Meaning, what is this person like in day to day living? How do they handle their job or the stresses of daily living? How are they acclimated to their own community? Do they function in concert with the pulse of the community? Or are they an outlyer? Does this person function as a contributing part of society? Do they hate Obama? yes
And so on. So many of the questons I propose do not matter to the guy looking for some bimbo to dupe into marrying him and live the good life. I am in a uniques or rare situation - at least I think from reading much of the forum - that I have a very accomplshed person willing to take a chance to be with me. I feel that she is risking much more than I. To give up an opportunity as she has available - I have no doubt about it - and to risk coming to an alien land with no guarantees is a noble act. All the same it is a justifiable means to an end. We have the same purpose, same goals and are very much on the same level. Why do I feel the need to justify????? Don't know. I suppose I very early raised doubts about my intentions or more likely did not express them in a meaningful fashion. But I did know that I was going to meet someone special before before the meeting. And after constant communication since that time it reinforces what I had known months ago. I am a lucky guy!
Julian wrote, "...possible to really know someone if you haven't actually lived with them, or observed them on their own turf. Meaning, what is this person like in day to day living? How do they handle their job or the stresses of daily living? How are they acclimated to their own community?"
I had a quite humiliating experience of falling in love with a girl over there, who I knew as a friend (she had no interest in me other than friendship, and was plenty clear about that). But I did learn some important things about how she relates to her family, how she thinks about the world, how she handles stress and conflict, etc.
I haven't done the exact arithmetic, but our time together wouldn't add up to two months. But I visited her many times, saw her in her parents' home where she was living, saw how she treated her family, watched her with her little son (really, her very best side), watched with horror how she handled stuff with her ex husband, etc. I'll never know her very well, but I learned a lot about her, including warning signs of the dark side of her character.
To give one small example, I saw her (just a couple of times) being very hard on her incredibly sweet mother. Now THAT'S a telling indicator!
One of benefits about doing things in russia is that stuff goes wrong very often (there, it's just really hard to keep things running to plan), so it actually gives you a good chance to see how she responds to difficulties, and more importantly, a chance to experience facing difficulties as a pair.
So what I'm trying to say is, I recommend to any man to spend as much time as possible with her "at home," get to know friends and family as much as you can (usually a very rewarding experience in itself). Seeing what her life is like will not only help you to learn about her, but it can help you to understand what she is accustomed to, and how very different and strange it will be in your home country. Strange as it may seem, some of the things that we may see as a big hassle in her life, could be things she would miss a lot when leaving home.
What I'm TRYING to say, is that I believe in the possibility of getting to know someone in a super-long-distance romance. If I didn't believe in this, I would let the whole idea go.
Bowhunter,
Things are great. btw - met a couple from Netherlands who travel to Yellowstone area to fish every year. Everyone should go there at least one time before they die. Already have a trip planned with RW to explore Yellowstone. And also have a trip in mind for BIG BROWNS in NZ.
Today my friend is picking up her inernational p-port. And of course everything is assuming K-1 is approved. I am already planning trip to Black Sea area in the fall. Sochi maybe. Get to meet family. It will put a damper on bow season but I will be back for the rut. And we will be together for another week soon. Communication is daily. Even while out west was able to email. English lessons coming along and conversation on phone is greatly improved. Though understanding of IM is instant, not having the opportunity for daily dialogue hinders the progress of understanding the spoken word. "Repeat more slowly" works though.
Durak, I haven't had a chance lately to check your posts on russian travel. Are you still being the Russian travel expert? But it seems from other reading that the Krasnodar region is pretty much open to "tourism" from the West and EU. It is also apparent that a decent hotel is pricey. But all I need is a visa sponsorship from a place and can stay with honey. I'm not sure if I need to actually stay in a hotel once I have approval. Can it be revoked if I decide to cancel hotel after visa is approved??????? Or would you recommend staying in hotel for a couple days first. It makes no sense to have a hotel for two weeks when I'll never be there. The discussion of whether or not to use her address is still open. Is it possible to get a travel visa to Russia just by the fact that I will be staying with a local?
Maxi- still didn't get place in Kiev - I know tomorrow if my 'reservation' is good. Staying near center. Figure 7/30-31 for lunch.
Again, thanks to all for your input. I am a very fortunate person to have met an amzing woman.