First off, I've emailed the link a few times and I'm quite capable of 'seeing' their reaction in writing (I never said facial reaction). Don't get too hung up on the semantics.
Also, your difficulty to understand isn't something I've experienced from the FSU people I've met. The church shown in that link has a congregation of well over 10,000, and it isn't the biggest church that plays that kind of music, so plenty of people get it just fine.
And yes, I'm a YOUTH pastor, so that kind of church is my norm (which is why I show it to people who are curious about my profession)
Nasfan, I was jesting at the fact that you seem to be a bit of a traditionalist - only having a poke mate :P
Yeah I'm a traditionalist, in the Catholic sense, but how one chooses to worship God is their choice. Better than not worshiping and understanding him at all. If that is what it takes to get some youth involved in Christianity, good.
I knew you were giving me a poke and that's fine. Because on is a traditionalis doesn't make them narrow minded.
I apologize if that kind of church is your norm, and you have a following. Worship is worship. I am having trouble understanding the words because the music is noise to me. I thought you were e-mailing them the link just to see their reaction.
If someone sent me a link and said my church is like this, I wouldn't need to understand the words to get the general idea. I have to admit I'm a traditionalist as well and it makes me uneasy. Still nasfan has a point, better singing and dancing than out on the streets causing trouble.
Actually, if you study the history of worship, the church has been co-opting the contemporary musical styles of the day since the dawn of worship music. This kind of thing isn't new, although the 'contemporisation' (interesting word) of Christian music stalled until the 70s, when it got a bit of a kick-start. There is no Biblical edict on the subject, so it's all subjective. Like Nasfan says, each to their own. Pipe organ or guitar overdrive, whatever gets you close to God.
There are much heavier, more raw Christian artists than these guys, believe me.
BTW, Nasfan, have you heard much of Iona's stuff? I get the feeling you'd like some of it.
Your link example was a little heavier than our norm. We do a lot of Chris Tomlin, Matt Redman
Tree63, Passion Worship etc...
Look, everybody...since the Tower of Babel churches tend to reflect the community & it's congregants. I live in a small coastal town. 'Coastal" means laid back so you don't see many suits & ties. An adjustment for me after moving from a large city, traditional type. The majority of our congregation are younger to middle age "boomers" with kids & our current pastor is young(ish) & the Worship Dir. that was hired is young. We have a huge group of Youth & he (Worship Dir) is also responsible for leading music with the kids etc... But we also have residents/congregants that are in their 90s. We can't play the pipe organ music of their day, & we don't do themore contemporary style Muzzy is accustomed to. We are a small town church; little bit charismatic, little bit Baptist & a few old Bible Belt type. In the larger urban setting there is a large enough population that you will have churches all different 'styles' of worship. When I made my decision in '82 & began going to church I was in my late 20s & had been a professional drummer in the Austin, TX music scene since 17. Just breaking into the Christian music scene then was a rock band called Petra. There were parents rolling their eyes & just sure "the End Is Near!".
Whatever style music brings a congregation to block out all the cares of the world they just came in from, into a mindset of praising their God & hearts open to hear the message to come....let it rip! Whether it be ukulele, banjo or electric guitar. I had the opportunity to attend some church services in Thailand. Any one of those would seem strange & not work at all for most of us.
Point being, there is no (yet) one world religion or one world church. I have no interest in throwing around a bunch of scripture but I'll share a paraphrased story. A few disciples (being rather arrogant 7 elitist) came running to Jesus & said they has come across some guys preaching the gospel & driving out demons Jesus name. 'But they weren't one of US so we told them to stop.' Jesus said Don't stop them. Whoever is for us is not against us!
My whole issue had been even tho we are smaller & a bit toned down from the link Muzzy gave, we do have drums, guitars, theatrical style lights, projection screens etc.... to a lady from the Ukraine accustomed to the Ortodox Church....THAT would be a culture shock!!!
Muzzy - My sound board is the Yamaha GS-32ch x12 matrix (analog @#!$ it). Started to outgrow it & would love to go digital (MC7L???) but current economics....I added a decent Behringer 12ch sub-board to get me 10 more ch.s rather than shelling out $7 - $12k for a new 48 Ch.. dbz Driverack, Alesis Reverb, QSC amp, some channel vocal processors, JBL Marquis series speakers 'flying" at center point at stage edge etc... 10'x7' screens at stage & rear wall light board & theatrical lights. I designed & installed it all when we built the new sanctuary in '01 w/ multiple upgrades since. We do OK for a little Baptist church in a tiny town.
I am curious bgpa. With all of this and the knowledge you have, why do you find it necessary to look to Ukraine for a female? Aren't there good enough ladies within the congregation or from those that follow your spiritual beliefs? Surely now I am perplexed that suddenly I discover several who are spiritual and belong, yet cannot find a lady within their own pastures. And not just you. Call me wondering. Many or most of the men said thay are fed up with American women and that is ehy they chose this route. Yet, if you belong to and are an integral part of some spiritual group, there must certainly be women who are not slags within that group. Just wondering.
Small town called Port Aransas,TX on the TX Gulf Coast recently 'discovered" by an Arnold Palmer 18 hole golf course & other high end developers. Property taxes went up 300% in 1 year & windstorm insurance is a killer. If I had not inherited our family property I wouldn't be here & it's still difficult. Cops commute from local towns, Teachers the same etc.... There is one divorced woman in my church & she & I have been friends for years. Nice lady, we just don't 'click' at all. Look, even all the moderate income young families have over recent years all moved away. I say I don't like to speak in absolutes....1 exception, no there are very, very few single or single again people of any kind here much less women. I am tempted to sell the property & move back to the Hill Country but there is so much history in this house & there are the benefits of living 3 blocks from the beach.
So I decided it was up to me and joined some of the US sites; ChristianMingles, Match.com etc.... it was actually some banner ad or link at 1 of those that took me to AoB back in Oct.. We've already discussed my bad fortune of winding up there - ad nauseam. But I did fall for the TYPE of FSU woman if you are persistent & willing to survive & learn from your mistakes long enough to succeed. Because of the same property issues I said, during the summer the shop owners cannot staff their businesses. FSU students come here for the summer & work the shops. They stay in small housing provided by the owners & vans bring them to work. Last summer there were 18 young women from Ukraine. Much, much more mature & mannered than the same kids their age here. Guess that's when the 1st small "seed" started.
Yes, there is a huge disparity between decent guys on these US sites & women there. Someone with more expertise could write a book about it but just the fact that this whole 'process' is exploding in popularity & use is evidence of that. Even in this 1 small example here; vast majority of guys here are decent types just frustrated with fighting the gender wars where they are. I have a different question then, if you wonder about finding women in our narrow 'spiritual beliefs' then it seems it would be much easier in the larger, urban 'general' population for the rest of you blokes. All kinds of women complaining about not finding a man. Then you discover her list of demands to be 'fulfilled' etc....
My 'spiritual beliefs" are my rudder you might say. Other than that I'm just a regular guy, rather middle of the road actually. All my knowledge comes from doing catch up research on-line, talking to you guys & just generally wanting to know.
"Spiritual Groups" tend to rather small, cloistered little groups. Not exactly fresh dating pools. So I reckon' my answer is I'm here for same reason you & everyone else is. So what brought you here, outside of whatever your social environment is? I imagine it's all the same.
OK, this was an interesting topic. I correspond with several ladies & I explain that this is not just personal preference, it is what I DO. All this Tech stuff I do in theatres AND churches is my passion. I am aware of great cultural differences. Have no expectations of regimented, weekly church devotion. I don't crack some religious whip in my home. (there is the feather whip under the bed for when I DO find a wife!;) Just a point of commonality. I'm sure an atheist would look for a like minded atheist, an agnostic to an agnostic etc.... Many men in America do attend church & I wouldn't even raise the issue if I were not staff. Technical staff at that. And having that position is a bit different. You don't spring this stuff in the 1st letter! Only if a real dialoge seems to develop.
ALL of the ladies (except 1), all of whom had 'Christian as opposed to Orthodox under their religion label, said they appreciated my description. That it was different than their experience but in knowing me a bit, this was in NO way a 'deal breaker'.
Then I get this from 1 lady;
Bill, I am quite well familiar with the process of services in Baptist churches, the basis for all of them originally came from different kinds of
churches in your part of the world, mostly all founders of Ukrainian Baptist churches are from the USA, so surely there are many similarities between this kind of churches here and there. For me such services look really strange and non-understandable…. I won’t go into details because I don’t want to offend any feelings and principles in any case. I can only advise you to develop the relationships with a lady (if she is from Ukraine or Russia) who is also a member of the Baptist or another kind of protestant church, otherwise it will be impossible to find a common ground.
Maybe she's being polite...but the tone seemed rather.....patronizing. 1st of all, Baptist churches unlike many, are autonomous. We hire our own pastors, worship in our own preference. Each 1 is unique. ESPECIALLY on a small barrier island!!! To say Baptist churches in US are just like whatever missionary extension of whatever group...!! And to group ALL Ukraine woman with whatever stereotypes this woman has is just Wrong!!! Obviously this lady got under my skin. I've been trying to decide whether to flame a response or just let it go.
76% of America believes in a creator. Near 50% attends SOME kind of worship sometime during the year. I think I'm a decent enough guy who just happens to not catch the ball games until after noon on Sunday. Man. she ticked me off! She sent me the Intro letter & several since until I mentioned 'church'. I was Wonderful up to that point. Hmmmm....
There's a saying - "plenty more fish in the sea". Pity I seem to live in a goldfish bowl.
To answer a point that seems to be getting assumed into being, the link I put up isn't my church - it's my 'type' of church. Planetshakers are specifically a youth church. As a youth pastor, it's my job to do that kind of service for my young ones. Our main congregation (30yrs+) aren't big fans of that kind of thing, so those services are kept to Friday nights, with the main Sunday services all Hillsong/Tomlinson/Redman/Cantelon stuff.
When we do the youth stuff, we get together with other youth groups from around the area. This is what packs the venue out and gives it that 'live' feel. It seems to work well. We're actually a pretty small church, too (membership 100-ish, 60-something in attendance on a good Sunday). Thing is, there's absolutely nobody my age there, and because being in the congregation (and running the worship and looking after any youth that can drag themselves out of bed) is my job, it's not like I can go round to any other churches to meet new people there - so I'm pretty much left with the internet for my 'search'. I'm also on the Christian dating sites, but to be honest, they're not much good.
Bgpa, if you ever do upgrade to digital, get an 01v. Seriously the best $2k you'll ever spend. Individual stackable effects and gating on all channels, automated faders & scene memories - you can pretty much throw your outboard in the bin. Marvelous :)
We're in pretty much the same boat. About 120-150 attending. Can swell up or down a bit with the seasons. I've sat in on drums for some local youth bands doing a battle of the bands etc... But just have not pulled together enough church harmony(diff competing denoms) to put together a youth service like that.
Our main services I could bet are pretty similar. We got along just until a month ago w/ acoustic guitar, keyboard & me on drums. No bass guitar... Take my word for it, drums trying to pull rhythm phrasing, bass line etc... off a once organist now on keyboard & an acoustic guitar is NO fun. Now have 2 acoustics, great bass paler & keyboardist is finally starting to get some real rhythm to her chops. My worship dir. is a Tomlin devotee. There are a couple songs that if I never heard again would suit me just fine.
I understood Ralph29's question & it was a valid one. When I lived in the much bigger; Austin,TX, went to large church & the singles groups of diff churches got together...hey, it was perfect. Well, almost. Met my 1st wife there. Nothing is ABSOLUTELY perfect. :(
But small(ish) town America, don't do bars much less the "shark tank' singles bars? Yeah, the traditional cultures of the real, mature FSU women is great.
Yes, I need to go digital & I have a quote on that board from CCI. But I also need a digital switcher/scaler so I quit having to switch the !@#$ Computer1 & Video inputs on projector to play DVDs etc... 4 years ago I had a $5k annual budget. Now...well, both the switcher AND a new sound board are on HOLD. Sign of the times. That's why the 12ch sub-board for a couple hundred. I could really use adding at least 1 more light bar & throwing in some of the new LED color lighting. If you guys have the budget, I may move there! :) Fact is we do pretty well for a church our size. Sounds like you do too. At least until 1 of us is gone. Don't know about you but I have a decent young man as an assistant but he has NO aspirations for any more than he's doing right now. Thx.
I was a member of a big church in my youth. It was the source of my first two girlfriends. After I got back from the service, the pastor's daughter became my girlfriend. Her biological clock was on overdrive. I almost married her, but she was too liberal for me. She once did a speech in the church on the "evils" of corporations in other countries. I didn’t see the speech. She told me about it. She also told me how another church member was annoyed at her and did another speech for equal time.
I got married - twice for a total of 17 years, and I lost track of the church. I tried teaching Sunday School, but waking up my first wife for church was a big task. She eventually was persuaded to go with me most of the time, but many times, church would start and I was still trying to wake her up. I eventually gave up. I no longer cared about going to church with my second wife.
I started going to church again with about a year after my last divorce. It is a small church. It was hard to find women I was compatible with when I first joined, but there was one there. She was 38, pretty and she was the pastor. She was transitioning out to become a hospice pastor at that time. I asked her out many times, and I succeeded. We went out to lunch. Getting a second date was impossible. I think I got to the point where I pissed her off.
On one of her sermons, the pastor told us of how she was a victim of sexual assault while she was in seminary school. I did some research and many women who are victims of sexual assaults have a hard time getting into normal relationships. Some stay single for the rest of their lives because of it. I suspect this was the case with her. I see her now and then and we are very nice towards each other, but I haven't asked her out since. It was two or three years after I dated the pastor, that I found out about FSU women. I have not seen anyone in that church who was my type during that time. I see two who are now, but I am a one woman man.
Church is definitely a good place to find a mate. I attended church camp for high school seniors years ago. Recently I ran into a lady that went to the same camp. She said she was going to tell her friend, who was in the same camp that she saw me. They are now both married. I just saw a lady that I went to church with in my youth in high school on Facebook. I dated her friend’s sister. Her friend saw a comment I made and she replied, “You kissed my sister.” I didn’t know anyone was looking when I kissed her. I remember that kiss, but never told anyone. That was 33 years ago. Her sister, the lady I dated got married three years after that and has been married 30 years.
Your 'good answer' post...which one??? :0 I think we've thrown about a 1/2 dozen at ya'.
Ragingbull - PKs (preachers kids) can be dicey. They tend to go 1 of 2 ways; a shoot directly off the tree. As in mirroring the parents, sometimes going in ministry themselves or a spouse of someone who is (pastor's wife etc.) #2 are the rebellious ones who feel stifled or whatever. I remember this PK girl in High School (my PRE-church days) she was so bent on being the wild child that...well, you get the picture. :)
Something you might want to consider about the lady pastor you were interested in. Might be a bit more simple than just her past event. Something I have personally witnessed is it can sometimes become an issue for a pastor if even a male pastor becomes close friends with a person or group. For a woman pastor to become involved with someone that actually sits in a pew....
Well, it can be complicated. A pastor is an authority figure. She might have very well felt an interest but a professional sense of their needing to be detachment in oder to serve may have kicked in. A pastor's role can be tough & isolating. That's why many are married before taking a post. You are looking out across the whole gamut of people including other single or single again parishoners seeking company. To ever get involved at any level with one...like I said, it could be complicated. Hey, I'd say it goes a long way that she went out the 1st time. Must have been some attraction for her to consider it!!!
The pastor was transitioning to become a hospice minister. I didn't ask her out until AFTER her last sermon at the church. Another question might be - was she homosexual? I doubt it. She told me she had a boyfriend in college before she entered the seminary. He broke her heart and she didn't know what to do with her degree, so she entered the seminary.
My grandfather, being a minister made my mother, aunts and uncles PKs. You might want to call the PK wild, but she was following her Dad's liberal ways. This was in the mid 80's, and the pill being fairly new, sex being acceptable before marriage was a big issue. I remember her father giving a sermon on sex. I still remember his last words on that sermon. "Remember, if you do it, let there be three of you that do it: You, your partner and God."
I last saw the pastor a few weeks ago. It has been more than four years since I asked her out. She substituted for our regular pastor while he was on vacation. Her last name hasn't changed, so she's not married.
I have found that the best compliment for a woman is to comment how young she is. I asked the pastor why she has not aged over the years. She threw the compliment right back at me as she always have. She said we all looked young. It must be the water.
bgpa -- your post 19.12.2009 1:44:01 --- was the only one I saw when I said good answer.
Good luck. Makes perfect sense. Most of us have very similar explanations.
Interesting news for Julian (that guy everyone can't stand). VISA interview is scheduled for Feb. 10. I will be there in less than two weeks. I have all of the required data and documents prepared for the embassy -- I will not have to fed ex it! I will deliver it in person. Assuming all goes well, looking at mid March or late April to take chariot to JFK to pick her up at airport. Then the hard work starts!!!!!!! But it will not be work at all.
She told me it was snowing again. And we just got a foot of snow here! Can't wait to see the mountains covered with snow!
Being a lover of music, I believe my gf will love our church service. I will insist on her attending services. We also have guitars, drums, keyboards, flutes... and even trumpets. But, those are in an earlier service. We usually have two services. The later service which I attend have the traditional piano and organ.
I wish she could have been there in today's Christmas service. The music usually from the first and second services played for both services. We also have a "Bell Choir", which is a collection of 30 bells that plays different notes. Fifteen players hold two bells a piece and take their turns ringing to form a melody.
Speaking of church services, we share time between the Russian Orthodox church and the Catholic Church. Larger cities will have a Russian Orthodox community. Though I am a traditional cradle Catholic, I'm also a believer that God doesn't care what church you are in to worship. Just like the Priest at communion will give the wife a blessing as I receive.
I think it's interesting to learn another religion. I remember a comment Ronald Reagan made regarding the fall of the Soviet Union. He gave credit to the average people of the Soviet Union for not leaving their faith in the Russian Orthodox religion even though many of their priests sold out.