duack Been busy last few days. Just going through a few of your thoughts. Suddam comes to mind yes he invaded Kuwait for that ya things were done almost right. Everyone knows he killed many people was corrupt. But Big deal back then was his weapons of mass destruction. In the end there was none, he was a thief and a murderer, A lot of the things done to invade his country were done in a very miss leading fashion. The other countries involved ended up with egg on there face. During my recent travels I stopped in on at Government office for some papers. I talked with a man in line there, He told me about his thoughts on Putin. He called him the new Hitler, said he is doing same things Hitler did. Now when Hitler went on war path He invaded Poland took him 9 days with his new style of war fare. He killed all in his way he had no use for. So I asked this man how taking back Crimea sea port was even close to the same thing, Or for that matter, How Suddam's take over of Kuwait was the same thing. The people in Crimea voted to return, They have flown Russia flags there since they have been part of Ukraine. Maybe this action should have been done in UN I think he just didn't want to see Crimea stuck in limbo while Ukraine spent next 6 years in civil war. After all it is a important sea port.
And you know you are the one writing all this stuff WHY DO I have to back up all my stuff. I'm just questioning what I have read. You guys better come up with the hard facts. But I guess if its written on the internet it must be true. Oh by the way who is this Jennifer Psaki, and does she have any idea of what she is talking about U tube shows her doing a speech sayings She is protecting Europe supplied gas from Russia. How can she stand there and not have any idea of what she's talking about. Is she part of George JR's staff? Even the Eroupean reporters tried to give her a chance to fix her mistakes and she missed the boat totally. I really don't want to see this whole mess go south because it was handled stupidly. And are Obama's tactics working Not a F***ing chance
A few of us guys in the forum are history buffs, but most people know only bits of world history. 1930's Germany was doing a lot of annexing before its blitzkrieg invasion of Poland. When you were talking with the man standing in line, you were comparing to the wrong thing.
Germany started with the annexation of the entire state of Austria in 1938, because ... Austrians speak German, I guess.
A few months later, Germany bullied its way into seizing those parts of Czechoslovakia nearest to Germany territory (Sudetenland) because ethnic Germans lived there.
A few months after that, Germany was able to use its Sudetenland foothold to make a swift military conquest of the rest of that state's Czech territory (because ???), all of which was annexed to Germany.
Shortly after that, Germany annexed the Memel region of Lithuania, because Germans lived there.
To those of us familiar with this history (including, famously, a Russian professor in Moscow who was fired for saying so), Russia's seizure of Crimea has many strong parallels to what Germany did in 1938 and 1939.
If you want to make your own informed judgment about this question, I suggest studying the history of Germany's pre-WWII annexations.
You wrote, the "people in Crimea voted to return." Respectfully, this is pure fiction. The "referendum" in Crimea was IN NO WAY AT ALL similar to a legitimate election. Those of us in the West are lucky enough to know what real elections look like, Thank God! What happened in Crimea was Quite The Other Thing.
I won't make the whole argument here, but:
* the referendum was in any case illegal
* the referendum did NOT offer remaining part of Ukraine as a choice
* the actual turnout was probably much less than half of eligible voters
* had there been a real vote, the percentage supporting Russian unification probably would have been less than 55%, most likely between 30% and 40%
There actually is some precedent for votes of this kind: because they are so momentous, the results cannot be valid unless turnout and margins are very high, and the election is held under scrupulous conditions of fairness and freedom.
"Maybe this action should have been done in UN I think he just didn't want to see Crimea stuck in limbo while Ukraine spent next 6 years in civil war. After all it is a important sea port."
A. By the UN Charter, Russia was absolutely and unconditionally obligated to address its supposed concerns at the UN Security Council. Even when the US made its wrong and illegal invasion of Iraq under Bush II, the US went to the UN first, and at some considerable length.
B. There is no "civil war" in Ukraine, except for what Putin has fomented. It is a standard tactic of his to create a crisis, and then "play the hero" by stepping in to resolve it.
C. I don't quite know what you mean by limbo. If Putin REALLY believed that Crimea's "Russians" were in danger (they absolutely never were, at any time) ... well, Putin had already achieved complete military control of the peninsula. He could have left his "protectors" in place until things in Ukraine calmed down again. ANNEXATION WAS ABSOLUTELY NOT NECESSARY for the protection of even one single person in Crimea.
D. No, Sevastopol is NOT an important seaport TO RUSSIA. I don't blame you for repeating this, a lot of "experts" who should know better have been repeating it too. Russia's "Black Sea Fleet" is tiny (one missile cruiser, one anti-sub ship, one destroyer, 2 frigates, one sub, and a bunch of small craft like minesweepers and landing craft), old/obsolete ... a neglected bunch of rust-buckets. Russia started years ago building a new naval base on Russia's LEGITIMATE Black Sea coast. Crimea is an important naval base TO RUSSIA only in a sentimental/historical sense -- practically, it means almost nothing. Now, the bases in Crimea were truly important TO UKRAINE -- but Putin has stolen them, along with most of Ukraine's navy.
"You guys better come up with the hard facts"
Steve, I consider myself a hard-nosed skeptic. I am VERY alert to propaganda, whether from the Kremlin, the White House, or anyplace else. I keep an eye on the axes various parties are trying to grind, and my sense of smell on what statements they make for self-serving reasons.
I don't know which facts you're looking for, but I have a hell of a lot of respect for Truth. I actually believe it's worth dying for ... and in extreme circumstances, killing for. If there's any question anybody has about what's going on in Ukraine, where I can help by pointing to dependable data and evidence, I am eager to do so!
So, ARE Obama's tactics working?
We know that Russia's conventional military invasion of Ukraine stopped at the Crimean border (no one should forget that under international law, a substantial part of Ukraine's sovereign territory is under unlawful foreign military occupation). In my mind, that no further invasion occurred is a good thing.
We know that at long last (after Putin lied about at least twice), Russia is drawing down the powerful armed forces it massed on Ukraine's border. In my mind, that is a good thing.
We know that Ukraine successfully held a presidential election in substantial compliance with Ukraine's constitution, and that within a few days, all of the country's elective offices will be filled by people chosen in legitimate elections, or properly appointed such electees in accordance with the constitution. In my mind, that is a good thing.
We know that only a couple of percent of votes in the election went to ultranationalists (no surprise to anybody
We know that only a couple of percent of votes in the election went to ultranationalists (no surprise to anybody who knows Ukraine, but absolutely contrary to Kremlin lies). In my mind, that is a good thing.
We know that excepting one city and a few towns, all of non-Crimean Ukraine is under the control of its legitimate government, which appears to be clamping down on the rebel zones. In my mind, that is a good thing.
Until a week or two ago, it appeared that Putin might do one or more of:
* launch a full-scale military invasion
* disrupt the presidential election in a way that would undermine its legitimacy
* increase the amount of east Ukraine territory under control of his "green men" and Ukrainian traitors
It's impossible to know with certainty, but I think a good case can be made that the existence of costly sanctions, and the threat of much harder sanctions, made the difference in Putin's decision making.
So I can't prove that Obama's tactics are working. But I think they might be working pretty well.
If you can prove they are NOT working, sir, then let's hear your case.
durak Ya your right about length of comment. As far as vote goes I don't see it registered with UN but having been there I don't doubt it was authentic. Having been to Ukraine I was told there were factions of different political beliefs sitting there in the wait. So I doubt Putin had to do very much, if anything to start trouble there. Yes I'm a history buff to. I know Canada used to have a military I know we entered WW2 in 1939. Same day as Britain I know USA sat back with lend lease program. Only people from USA who were in the war then, wore Canadian or French or British uniforms. HollyWood represents this History rather poorly, and is insulting to those who died. So don't start me on this. As far as Russia invading Ukraine I don't know, There is no evidence of invasion, Maybe he did exactly what he said he would do, protect Russian people. As I have said this should have been handled a lot different then it has been. Now tell me what the future will hold for Ukraine and rebel factions living within. We have seen this many times in many countries. Do we blame Putin for every car bomb that goes off in the future in the name of separatism. And yes who Is this woman Jennifer Psaki She really screwed the pooch with her last speech.
And as for Crimea I am pretty sure Russia does not want a American base there. So don't down play the Crimea. Think back to Cuban missile crisis and US missiles in Turkey. That is a moment that almost changed the world.
RUSSIAN FINANCIAL PROS SAY SANCTIONS STOPPED RUSSIA TAKING EASTERN UKRAINE
Not MY opinion, but the opinions of Russians who work in the financial industry. From Bloomberg:
While Putin is motivated more by the desire to assert his nation’s power in the world, invading eastern Ukraine would have provoked harsher international sanctions and risked accelerating the flow of money out of Russia.
“We got to the point where the market speaks and politicians are forced to listen and adjust,” Mansur Mammadov, a money manager at Kazimir Partners Ltd. in Moscow, which oversees $300 million in emerging-market equities, said by phone on May 29. “The volatility was like a tsunami and it would be just logical to assume that it made the politicians realize the cost of Russian expansion in Ukraine was too much for the slowing economy.”
“Eastern Ukraine became an expensive idea and it seems Russia doesn’t want it anymore,” Ilya Kravets, the New York-based director of investment research at Daniloff Capital LLC, said in a May 30 phone interview. “There would be serious sanctions if Russia were to annex more territories from Ukraine, and the market reaction to that would be even more severe.”
A man was accused by his neighbor of having returned a kettle in a damaged condition. In his defense, he said:
"I returned the kettle undamaged. It was already damaged when he borrowed it. I never borrowed it in the first place."
This is what lawyers often do, called "argument in the alternative."
I get that your thinking on this matter is not going to be swayed by any facts or logic.
I get that you really, really, really don't like the US responding -- in a very restrained and peaceful manner -- to a gross violation of the international order that has probably saved tens of millions of European lives since 1945. I get that you would prefer the US to say, "this is a little squabble between you guys with the weird alphabet, none of our damn business."
I understand that you had a really painful experience in Ukraine -- most of us old-timers have, and a few (including myself) more than once. Frankly, you seem to despise Ukraine and its people. Well, I don't, and I want the best for them.
Most of the former Soviet Union (excepting to some extent the Baltic countries) is -- in terms of corruption, criminality, abuse of power, and political liberty -- a filthy stinking sewer. Independent Ukraine has been inside that sewer since its beginning. Now, a majority of Ukrainians are ready to crawl out of the sewer, to clean their country, and to enjoy the blessings of Western civilization.
There's a huge slime-dripping monster inside that sewer that doesn't want Ukraine to leave, and has been busily grappling Ukraine with its tentacles. My brother, I know which side I stand on!
durack I will question this till I am sure of facts and not just peoples opinions whether they be so called professionals or just everyday people. I feel this could of been handled very differently. Yes the States and Russia carry big sticks. It just happens way to often when these 2 party's start swinging them, everybody suffers around them. This has been proven time and time again. And this has nothing to do with Ukraine, and my visits there, I have made some very long term friendships there. Just for once I would like to see the people who swing these sticks show responsibility for the power they wield, and the respect they seem to demand, shown to the people(in this case countries around them) This is not the first time your Shepherds have cried wolf. We all know the moral to this story. And I will give you the benefit of the doubt. All may be true. Every time a new president comes to power there is some sort of crisis, A lot of these crisis involve other countries other then your own. Tell me Has any body rebuilt New Orleans yet. For all I know Putin may have parked his 40 thousand troops, beside Ukraine Just to Make the States spend money, Kind of his payback for Russia in Afghanistan. I Don't know the answer. When I go to another country I leave my politics at home, and just try to enjoy the people and their lifestyle. When I am asked what do I think of their politics. I reply I do not live here or vote. It is not my right to force a opinion on your matters without knowing the full story. I have seen some good things, and not so good. Or maybe just some things I am not used to. This could make for a very bad call. And believe me If something is truly wrong. I to would gladly put my life on the line, for those in need. The way the news stations ramble for ratings these days, this information is not good enough. And I have seen a few different prospective from the news media. On both sides of this fence over this issue. And I take it all with a grain of salt. What I do know is history is a very good teacher. So do we repeat mistakes or learn from them, adjust and try to improve. One way or another, We will deal with that decision again later on in life. And history has proven this.
When I think back to all of my experiences with both countries and the people from and within,,,, I don’t have a single reason to like either one. (other than Russian pancakes,,, Blinnci?) I believe if Putin gets Ukraine,,, he will continue on to the other FSU countries. Decades of progress down the toilet.
If Ukraine wins their battle,,, I’m not worried about them over running their borders,,,, but perhaps freedom will spread?!
When in Tver’ Russia, soldiers had run of the place. I saw more armed soldiers in one hour,,, than I have my entire life. I remember thinking,,,,,, just what are they protecting?? Who are they afraid of?? While in a small store,,, three armed soldiers came walking in thru the store and into the back room. After a few minutes they walked out. The interpreter grabbed my hand and said: Don’t look! She never explained what was happening,,,, but I figured it was for some kind of payment,,, but I’m guessing.
My wife Irina, now ex wife, would watch the international news quite often, looking for news from Russia. They were fighting with someone during the late 90’s,,, and she would talk about the people from the “Caucasus” or sometimes the “Provinces”. “Dirty people,,, lawless, always causing trouble, they have no respect for anything“! She could go from hating the color red,,, to defending Russia’s aggressive activities. The interp in Tver’ had the very same opinion of Ukraine.
I guess if people are told something long enough,,, they will believe anything.
lonelyranger I would prefer seeing a bridge built as apposed to a wall. From my experiences there I seen a lot of miss guided thinking about western ways. really don,t think it will work well on there own. I think all can move forward. But quite simple Russia is the strongest since fall of CCCP. I think Ukraine needs both Europe and Russia to move forward for a future. Right now I just see them trading one problem for another. I hope in the near future we see all parties back at the bargaining table. I am pretty sure Crimea will stay where it is, Maybe when all crap settles. It won't matter. Ya I know wishful thinking
In 2014 eastern Europe, exactly one state has used aggression against another. If that state renounces aggression, and reverses its unlawful acts -- acts that violate its OWN laws -- Ukraine, the USA, and most of the rest of the world will embrace it with open arms.
The bridge is at their feet, and they can step onto it any day they choose.
Nobody else -- no other state -- stands in their way.
durack Everyone is entitled to there own opinion. I have many relatives that live in the States some I have never even met. Me I don't vote in your elections and yet the States issues affect my country as well as many others(directly effect) So yes you can be sure I will question these issues. I hear everyday from others who are starting to wonder more and more, about whats going on with Ukraine and Russia. Sorry you don't like my thoughts. But I have been around long enough to keep my eyes open. So hows this affect the world monetary reset I hear so much about. You know the one thing I am sure of right now, is that politicians in politician school first and most important classes are how to kiss babies and smile while they break promises 101. By the way I thought this was a Russian dating forum. And how much of this conversation do you think this will actually effect the worlds outcome.
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=u+tube+the+road+of+death+ukraine&docid=60801 9927356080974&mid=3EEE9443DB8BAC9A282B3EEE9443DB8BAC9A282B&view=detail&FORM=VIRE 1#view=detail&mid=3EEE9443DB8BAC9A282B3EEE9443DB8BAC9A282B if that dosn't work try utube road of death Ukraine. As always the people that are just trying to live there lives pay the price.
Steve,,,,, I thought a bridge had been built dating back to Mikhail Gorbachev? Putin has since mined the other end of it.
Putin is quite simply a Dirty Bastard! He playing a dirty game with Ukraine, and one of his biggest weapons is the news and other media. I noticed that your video link is from RT. 100% controlled by Putin. I don think much of our own news media right now,,, but RT has never been, and never will be worth anything as long as Putin is around.
YEP, it’s all America’s fault. I traveled in and around Canada during the Gulf wars,,,, and America was to blame for everything that was wrong in Canada.
I’m sure it’s the same story in every country,,,,, but when they need us,,,, it’s,,, Where’s America?? Why aren’t they doing something?? About 75% of the posts on fb are wondering why we are moving so slow? My reply to them, is that the American people voted in the enemy.
-Can we all get alone- this is a dating furom is turning political and politics don't belong in this environment. Some people are very passionate about this current events, main because we had/ have friends/ lovers and expiriences in Ukraine/ Eestern Europe...I recommend to restrain this point of views, just like if you were Ukraine or Russia ( because politics is taboo. ) don't get into this trap; is not worth the fight! If they say "-Ya lyublyu Russia-" no problem I love my devushka, family and Russian vodka too.( I rather have a pivo ). Any way, comments of this sort can bite you in the butt. Don't shoot yourself in the foot. Kindly, recommend this to your loves one too. Remember! Big Brother is listening