Perhaps you have heard of what is going on in Ukraine to realise that educated ladies do not want to know about weapons, shooting, etc. Plus most of them are now against animal cruelty. The city girls regard their local men who like violent computer games and films and who may even own guns as troglodites that they want to escape from. Of course in the USA they will only get more of the same. I do not believe that yours is as sophisticated and educated as you make out."
Well I am originally from Ukraine and all my family is there So I wouldn't avoid knowing what is going on...
Here in the UK gun ownership rules & situation somewhat differ from those in the USA. But I can see what you mean.
Plus, in our case, it is mostly paper targets that get hurt so I see no problem.
I should have been clearer; did not mean to say mine was "as" educated. I said I was :)
Sorry to hear the last part of the story. If I were to summarise my impression, it would be that you met a female who came out to be:
- a troubled soul with UNREMEDIED psychological luggage,
- real desperate. In several ways.
Another impression was that to you, all that kinda had to do with Ukraine as a country/culture.
My first impulse was to shout "I beg to differ". (I am Ukrainian as just mentioned above, could not help it.)
But suddenly something occured to me. In troubled/disadvantaged parts of the world - Ukraine sadly being one of them - the odds of encountering a troubled and/or desperate female might be higher than elsewhere... Not sure if that can be called a link but still.
You might be experiencing a "shipwrecked" feeling now. But after all, it simply was not your ship.
“What I think makes this thread useful is that it is not about the typical fraud / scam detection stuff. “
But,,, yes,,, it is turning into the typical scam/fraud stuff!!
Most of the time,,, the scam is when the father won’t relinquish his rights for the child. The foreign man is then forced to bribe or pay off the father. Perhaps this is just a new twist of an old scam.
Plus you are forgetting the expense of your travel and hotels while on your trip. How much did you spend on gifts?
“Every time there was a minor sign that I might pull back, she went hysterical, cried and said things that seemed unreal.”
The ways of an professional!
I once asked a girl from Ukraine,,, if a girl would sleep with a man, just for a vacation?? She said: Of course silly!!!
I had hoped your story would have a happy ending?! Welcome to FSU dating!
Now that you have told more about the girl, you have no option but to forget her and move on. I know you had not given us all this information as it was hard for you to acept it. The lying and treatment of her child is exactly the same as my ex-wife's. She lied to everyone and to her boyfriend. She has issues that need therapy too, but she will not accept it. Remember that many women lie blatantly about their previous man in order to raise the chivalry spirit in the new man. Most of us fall for it.
Do you want to know what child do not love their mother? One of my daughters not only does not love her, she hates her. It all comes from how your parents treat you.
Most men in this forum always talk about scammers and money, when the worst thing is to end with a broken heart. of course you should not have been taken expensive gifts or bought her things in Kiev. Next time leave your chilvalry out of your luggage when you travel to meet a girl (if you do).
However. Moya will tell you that you cannot judge all Ukrianian by this one. You just started in the learning curve.
I think you will need to do a favour to other men and expose her, either here or in the scammer data bases. I know you do not consider her as a typical scammer as you do not want to feel you have been scammed as well as being left with a broken heart, but it would be unfair for other men to fall for the lying.
"All the big words of this meeting being the greatest opportunity of her life were nonsense."
To me, this statement makes PERFECT sense. Moreover, it sounds pure truth. Once in a life time opportunity - to improve that very life. Once in a lifetime ticket, in other words.
Still. Cold-blooded manipulative scamming behaviour - I wouldn't say so. Pounces of a desperate soul - yes. Remembering Scarlett O'Hara: "...I'll never be hungry again. No, nor any of my folk. If I have to lie, steal, cheat or kill. As God is my witness, I'll never be hungry again."
What I am lacking in the scheme though, is "...nor any of my folk". The child did not seem included in mum's leap to better life.
But who knows. Maybe the woman believed that leaving the girl with the father WAS better life for the child. After all, kindred blood, and they get along well.
Or - who knows on what conditions the woman was "allowed" to leave abroad if she were to...
Not trying to justify anything or anyone. It's just - we never KNOW. As far as budding relationships are concerned, it's a matter of... say, daring to trust.
What happens next is to be embraced or survived - depending on its nature.
Just the lesson I learned.
Pls excuse this verbal eruption. But the story did get to me.
"I am very deeply in love with her and it is very mutual." The first post of this thread.
You were in love with her young body and she was enamoured with the material support you could provide her.
How quickly love has turned to "she has simply disappeared. I am not going to write to her"
You did not have an outright scammer there. You had a lonely girl living in poverty in Ukraine. A man comes along, spices up her life with gifts and travel for a couple of weeks. This is more of a fling, not a lasting relationship.
Nothing wrong with flings. I have them all the time. For some they are preferable to marriage or committed relationships.
There is nothing to regret over here. She gave you what you wanted probably and you the same.
R: What you say is possible. This is a hillbilly girl who (according to her) thinks all Americans are rich. She also says everyone she knows thinks the same. She said that when we were introduced she thought about me: "this is it". I showed her attention, flowers, etc. She saw who I am. She invited me to go to Kiev. She wrote me many letters and I mean many, every few hours. She wrote incredible things. Here is a small tiny sample I randomly pulled from her last letters:
"The thought of a child appeared when I began learn to get to know you, I do not know why. Again, this is not a coincidence. Inside of me I have so much conviction that I will only be yours. I've never been so sure as I am now".
"Yesterday I spoke with my sister. She said that this is a fairy tale and there is no doubt that you love me. She also said that we need a child, this is a complete family".
"Honestly I'm happy that we understand each other and we were able to do it because we love each other and it is a great happiness. Tomorrow will be 6 days when I'll see you, I can't hold my tears of happiness".
Here is what she wrote when she thought I might cancel the trip:
"I just read your letter my hands are shaking and my heart was pounding very hard. I don't understand what happened. I really try to understand you and understand what you like and think that I'm doing this. Now I'm crying, because I opened and I thought you also opened for me. You yourself wrote to me that you see in me the qualities that you are looking for. It was not true! You killed me! Why? I loved you and believed in you. I'm really looking forward to this meeting and I wanted to show you how I can love you and how can I take care of you. I understand that there are no ideal people! How can I continue to live, tell me? I really want to do much for you, I want to breathe one air with you! At the moment, you are my universe! You are very important and necessary to me!"
Imagine this shit going on every few hours for two and a half months. I can fill a small book with her letters all including extreme expressions of affection, and words like "I really really really love you". She reassured me many times I was her man and she would never ever change her mind.
Back to the potential scam, she did hint early on about me paying for her English lessons, but I did not go for this. Regarding the potential scam that you mentioned with the father, there was one time when I was really concerned. The day after I offered her to do the documents for the fiance visa, she wrote me the following:
"You understand correctly, and I'm ready to start a new life with you. I want to write to you today I talked to a lawyer. The lawyer is a good friend of my sister. This is a powerful lawyer. The lawyer lives in another town not far from my town and he has very good reviews, he was recommended to me by my sister, and he has not lost one case, yet. Of course he is not as strong as your lawyer, but he knows something. He says that I should not worry about leaving the country. Reasons to not let go of me do not exist at all. Of course ex-husband does not have to know about it. He told me very good news! Even if her father is against it, and my daughter would agree something more will listen to my daughter and I'm happy. I wrote to you to ensure that you were sure that our relationship is very serious for me, this is the most wonderful relationship in my entire life and I'm really ready for a lot for you. All I need from you is your love and support that you could reassure me in a difficult moment for me, because I know that will be difficult to me. I am ready to endure all this, just to be close to you".
Then on Skype I told her that if she could bring her daughter with the father's consent, I would support it. However, in no way I would engage in a legal battle in Ukraine with a father who wants to keep his child. She said she was certain the father would not give his consent and the child would not want to leave her father and friends. I asked her what she planned to do then. She said she was ready to leave her child in Ukraine and start a new life with me and she wrote it in her letters, as well. I was very concerned that she was trying to play on me the scam that you described. I was very diligent, I knew all the scams and questioned everything. This is what makes it so scary that even so I may have been played at some point.
Here is another tidbit from the same letter:
"Honestly, I do not want to talk and think about that person. I left him everything I had and left. I do not regret it! I did all this so that he finally left me alone. Now I am happy that I was able to get rid of this man, who suppressed and humiliated my personality. If I had not left him, I'd never met you. I get up every morning and thank God for having met you. I am really very happy now! I am happy because I love you! I am happy because you love me and I do not need anything else. I am confident that the problems with my daughter are a temporary phenomenon, and these problems will end, you just need time and patience. All is at it should be! Patience, believe to me I have enough. I love you very, very, very much! Thank you for this!"
I do not know if she did all this in the hope she would pull a scam on me later on or she hoped she would marry someone with money and later she figured she did not want me and she settled with the gifts and vacation time. It is hard to tell. As you said, if it is scam, it is not a typical one. I took her to the shops in Kiev (Ocean Plaza, Kreschatik) and bought her some designer items. It was not a lot of money by our standards, but they were worth a few monthly salaries for her.
It is bothersome to me that at the last moment (at the train station), I gave her some money for her transportation and she accepted it. At that time, 100% she knew
Thanks for the visit summary about the lady that you visited. Your impressions are some of the things that I worry about from these dating profiles. Someone who has emotional scars are not someone that I want to deal with. I have had to deal with a 12 year family crisis situation and don't need to start yet another family member issue. The issues about profile misinformation is also a big concern for me. Many of these profiles state no smoking, nor drugs, and infrequent drinking. With the abundance of cheap alcohol and cigarettes in that country, that seems to imply that nearly everyone in online dating doesn't smoke. That seems highly unlikely. I personally cannot tolerate tobacco smoke. My smoking relatives have to smoke outside the house when they come to visit. The topic of buying gifts is one that I question especially for someone who I am not engaged to. While I would give some tokens of affection and courtesy to the lady's relatives, I am a frugal person. I follow the concept of living below one's means. I am not into buying another person's affections nor trying to impress others. I am an immigrant who along with my family came into the country with almost nothing and not being familiar with the language and culture. The fact that I have taken the time and expenditure to make the trip to visit someone should matter and not what I bring or buy with me. I will do what is customary where I am visiting, but never splurge. Like a leopard, I will not change my spots and act differently.
I have gone through the visa process many years ago. It has changed since 9/11 and is probably more rigorous now. Not too long ago, a group of local men were charged with visa fraud when a group of them were paid to travel to Asia and take photos with women and then pretend to be engaged with them. So they are very more hesitant to just approve the visa so easily than in previous times.
Sorry to hear about what you found out later about the lady. BTW, I get highly suspicious when the communication becomes poetic or highly emotional.
Here is the rest of my previous post that cut off for some reason:
It is bothersome to me that at the last moment (at the train station), I gave her some money for her transportation and she accepted it. At that time, 100% she knew she would not communicate with me again, but she took the money immediately. When we separated before the train would leave, she turned to me and said "thank you". It sounded like a goodbye thank you. As I said, she has not reached out to me in four days. I wrote her a short letter yesterday. She has not replied and I doubt she will. She did the same thing to another guy she dumped to start with me, she did not write to tell him it's over. Now, she did this to me. It's just who she is.
Ukrainian women, whether scammers or not, have a very sharp sting that can hurt. As I said before, learn from my own experience. Never buy presents, any presents at all. If a woman would dump you because you did not buy her presents, then you are a lucky guy to get rid of her early. Do not even pay her transportation and other expenses and be cautious with hotels and restaurants. Let her put her own money at risk and evaluate her reactions. You can always pay her expenses at later meetings when you are certain about the relationship.
I hope you are not still thinking of pursuing this girl or the other extreme: thinking that all Ukrainian women are like this.
My ex has squeezed every penny from her boyfriend to fight me for my money and the children. On top of everything he is supporting her and buying her expensive holidays, jewellery, clothes, etc. All that she talks to people about him (including the courts) is his large house, his job and his salary. There is no limit to some men's stupidity. Does he not realise that one day he will be in my position?
The emotional blackmail from this girl gets a mark of 10 for achievement. I am talking to a gorgeous girl who is a lot younger than me and is more mature than me in some respects. It was me who was trying to get her sympathy by telling her what my ex has been doing. She told me to stop that talk, she did not like it as my ex was not with us to give her version of the story. She is divorced herself and has not said a thing about her ex-husband except when I have pressed her. She also says that all that talk about all Ukrainian men being drunks who mistreat their women is complete rubbish, that there is good and bad everywhere.
She asked me to come and see her (or I offered). I planned a trip with her and then I told her I had to postpone the trip, for months maybe, due to problems with my ex-wife. She said: fine, tell me when you can come, I do want to see you but I understand your problem.
A delicate thing to ask you guys. Mostly men, but should a fellow lady fly by and wish to answer, she is just as welcome.
Ehm... This verbal syrup by opposite sex, as described by 4re. In writing or live.
Doesn't it leave you with a "too much" feeling?
As a woman, I do appreciate an occasional compliment, as long as it does not cross personal boundaries.
But syrupy talks... To me, they only feel like after a bowl of candy in one go in childhood. Sick-ish in my stomach. No matter how many lonely moments I might have had over the last week, year, or decade.
Or does it simply work differently with guys? Ego boost and stuff... Well nothing wrong with that, apart from some added "gullibility".
I am now convinced this woman was a fraud. As I said in previous post, I wrote her an email and she did not respond. Today I called her cell phone. When she heard my voice, she paused for a few seconds and then hang up. I called again, but she did not answer. How can she not be a fraud? Until the very last moment, she was leading me to believe everything was alright and was accepting my money. She was in it for the money. There is no point reporting her as a scammer though. The family name she uses is not hers. This is another lie she told me. At first, she told me it was her maiden name. It turned out it was not. She goes by the family name of her ex (which is what her Ukrainian passport shows) and her maiden name is different. I wonder what kind of verification fiance.com does ....... do they even check the girl's passport? Anyway, she can change her family name to anything she wants. At this point there is no more to say about this, so I will sign out. However, I will say one thing. This time she messed up with the wrong guy. Be careful out there.
4re_geo this is a kind of soft scam - where she meets in person, expects all kinds of gifts and financial support. She may even offer sex. For me if she does then this is a fair transaction. As one other member said welcome to FSU dating!
omZ: I arrived at Boryspil in late afternoon. She waited for me at the airport with the driver all dressed up, high heels, make up, long eyelashes, nails with painted flowers and the likes. She slept with me from the first night. I brought her from the states three lingerie slip-ons and a baby doll and she wore them at my request every night without panties. I told her I wanted without panties during the day in the apartment. I grabbed her ass any time I felt like during the day. We had sex even a few hours before I took her to the train station for her return. Yes, I got plenty. This is not the point. I was scammed to believe this was for real. I was not looking for a friggin' escort or a girl to sponsor in Ukraine. 2 minutes before she got on the train, I told her "I love you" and she replied to me "I love you, I love you, I love you". Then at the last moment she said "thank you" and then disappeared.
We had even discussed about intimacy and sex in the letters. She wanted me to tell her everything about our meeting, how I thought of it and what we would do every day. I thought it was stupid to plan every moment, I had no idea what she was thinking. We talked about sex in detail. I told her what I like to do and what I like the woman to do. She was excited. We both expected it would happen right away from the first night. She was constantly leading me to tell her things and do things for her but without asking explicitly. Very cunning and effective, if she had asked explicitly at any time, I would have ended it.
I looked at her gmail information and she has changed her last name from Yulia Kolesnikova to Yulia Groo. None of this is her real name. I sent her an email to her .ru address, which she used and has her real name. No reply again. Of course, I will not persist. I was scammed and that's about it. I spent money on presents, hotels, restaurants. Yes she was probably being an escort, but I had no idea. Well, in her profile, she wrote she wants the man to be "generous". I read somewhere that this is supposed to be a red flag. You do not see this in women's profiles too often. But in her letters she said repeatedly she did not care about money or lifestyle, she needed little and she wanted to be understood and loved. She said the same things to this other guy whom she dumped to date me. This guy's older than me and she told him that age and money do not matter. He told me so in his PMs. He said that she told him everything a man wants to hear. Of course, she told me a lot more through those countless emails. By the way, her niece dates online a Turkish guy. She showed me his picture. Fat, ugly guy, shorter than her. He takes her to vacation places and has never gone to friggin' Ukraine. I had to spend my time in that place. Now, she has an international passport, she applied for it before our meeting.
I did not discuss with others in my social circle before. I did now as I am looking for answers. Of course, I now understand I was gullible and I am not like this in my every day life. I ignored the many signs, the gross exaggerations in her emails, the very weird behavior. Just three weeks after we were introduced, she told me that she loved me and that she has never told these words before to anyone except for her daughter. She said that she liked me very much but mainly she loved me for heart and soul. She was convincing, she spent the time, and I was gullible and believed her. She was throwing new bait every time it seemed I might postpone or cancel the trip, more exaggerations. See below a sample of this (translation as all of her letters are in Russian). She sent me this at a time when I expressed serious doubts and challenged her:
"Yes indeed this is not the letter, which I was expecting from you! I think that maybe you do not have the mood. Frankly it seems to me that the letter was not written by you but from another person. I thought that we discussed all these things and more we will not be coming back to this. But now I see a lot of doubt on your side. I wrote to you that I am ready and I made my decision and I will not change it. I really love you and want to be near you. I want you to know that not all Ukrainian women are the same, they are all different. I cannot force my daughter to live with me. For her, her father is God. I never forced my daughter to do what she does not want. My daughter's decision is to stay with her father, this is her choice. I can't sit and wait till 80 years of life when my daughter will change their views, perhaps she will never change her views and thoughts. If you think that I am just a foreigner and anyone in your life, it's your right! When I wrote to you that please don't hurt me. Why are you hurting me now? I also wrote you that all of the 10 years, I have been faithful and dedicated wife. I never cheated on my ex-husband, even though I did not love him. Family for me is something sacred. My mind and my body at some level right now with you, do you not understand it? For me it does not matter what your age, and also does not matter what your nationality. I have no purpose to marry American man, this is not the limit of my dreams. My dream is to start a family, a son or daughter and make the person who is next to me happy. I need a man who will love me the way I am. If you think that my goal to marry a foreigner, this is your error. I thought a lot about all the difficulties early. I already wrote to you that I'm ready for this challenge, just to be close to you. At the moment I am doing everything to be with you. I am engaged in the information which you to me have sent also Evgenie to me very much helps to do it. Everything is almost ready, remains to clarify some details and all notarize. What guarantees do you need? I've never been an obsessive woman and I will never never be. I'm just going to write to you that I really really love you and want to be close to you and to do anything for
You are nothing more than a sex tourist. Stick to prostitutes in your country and leave the FSU women alone. You are giving us a bad name.
It is worth reporting her to scammer data bases, she will use the same name e-mail address, phone number, etc. Photos of her will be very useful. Don't let other men fall in her trap. We are here to help each other. Put a link to her profile here. And say how much she cost you.
Have you reported her to fiance.com?