4re, your situation is nothing new in this country, why i would never touch these girls.
by the way you should have a HIV check and other,, i'm serious about this.
many of these Ukrainian girls are heartless vampires or just basically damaged goods,, its just how it is.
look how Selkie puts herself across, i'm not saying shes heartless but they have a matter of fact almost cold attitude about them (which isnt a bad thing in its right place) but look out when they go heartless.
your trip has given you invaluable info so dont sweat it, think of it as your gain.
you know now why we search for inconsistent bull, this is paramount in weeding out the crap and just laughing at those fairy tale storys you are served,,,, the lonely child scenarios..
the rubbish Ukrainian girls tried to rub off on me when i looked into this country gave me a indication how fucked up this industry really was there.
i even gave the odd one some advice, as in thats bull "if you want to lie" say it like this, with a remark, this is how NZ girls would do it with a smile on my face!
had the interpreter having kittens sometimes.
i lot of this is a game to them, you are just the bait.
you understand why i say "2 years" is a true and a very real period in learning anothers character, before then just be wise.
if you really want a girl from Ukraine you should go and live there, no way would i waste my time trying any other angle for this country.
For me, the sometimes ridiculous compliments are taken with a grain of salt. I am a realistic viewpoint type of person. I get criticized by my own relatives about me, so I cannot expect someone who hardly knows me to say that I am greatest person in the world (unless you are extremely naive which makes you an undesirable partner). I think the technique does sometimes work to play on the man's sympathy and to make him the "center of attention".
I am registered to the dating site and have gotten many messages and chat requests. Oddly, I have not included a photo of myself and yet I get so many contacts. Do they check the ID of the dating profiles? Don't know. All I can say is that they have not checked mine.
"I'm just going to write to you that I really really love you and want to be close to you and to do anything for you, I am ready to give birth to your child and you're a real man and it is up to you to decide yourself how you proceed further. I look forward to your letter! Miss kisses, hugs and love you! Your Julia".
WS: She has removed her profile from fiance.com a long time ago and I doubt she will reappear. I will report her to scammer databases with her current family name, as well as her maiden name and all other names she has used to this date.
I emailed her one more time and called her again several times. She has blocked me on her cell phone. I will not try to contact her anymore. Her behavior is the best therapy for me and helps me get over her, which I think at this point I have accomplished. No offense to you, but TomZ has given the most proper explanation regarding her behavior, that is soft scam. There is more that I have not mentioned and I will in the next days.
S earch her name, pictures and email address in Google, you may get some nasty surprises there.
Next time, (if there is one) search for the girl in the net before you fall in love.
I do not know if it is worth going on telling you but:
The genuine girls I have met online have told me that there is no way that they can fall in love with me online and that even when we meet in person they still need to check their feelings for me.
You acted like a sex tourist (a la TomZ) talking in detail about sex before you met the girl and bringing her material for your sex with her, which she accepted from day one. No genuine and decent girl will accept this. She can equally accuse you in the forums for ladies of only wanting sex from her, not being serious about the relationship and thus being a scammer yourself.
Men like TomZ and others completely refuse to see these things from the ladies' point of view. They see them all as sex objects or scammers.
"...many of these Ukrainian girls are heartless vampires or just basically damaged goods,, its just how it is.
look how Selkie puts herself across, i'm not saying shes heartless but they have a matter of fact almost cold attitude about them (which isnt a bad thing in its right place) but look out when they go heartless."
Interesting feedback, that is )
Ah Kiwi, in my case everything is simple. I just have lived long enough ) Soon will be too long to go by the name of "girl" )
And the longer I live, the clearer is the divide between what matters and what doesn't. One also becomes able to tell real life from fantasy, words from deeds, emotional affection from utilitarian attitude... you name it.
If I were in the mood for some digging, I would have asked what "heartless" exactly encompasses. But I am not )
"For me if she does then this is a fair transaction"
Months of dating/courting, 4 trips and money spent ... Is not a fair transaction; even, if she was not a scammer. Where if the serious intensions, self respect and dignity in interpersonal relations.
Forgot to say. I have always enjoyed being enamoured. Blissful emotions, they lift you off the ground! Should it not work out - provided no serious s**t happened, it's fond memories and valuable experience. If s**t happens - just the experience. lol
But just as much I believe in quality of decision making. Especially when it comes to life-upturning decisions like relocating/having partner relocated from "third world" to the West & tying the knot with them (legal responsibility)...
Here, emotions (a.k.a "heart") 'd better have a consultative vote. Too costly an error, if any. For both parties, in all senses.
4re_geo this is a personal rule of mine but if she offers herself this is reason enough for me not to report her as a scammer. I got what I wanted and she got what she wanted. The key is to treat it as a business transaction and not to get too emotionally involved.
WS: I am not a new kid on the block. I've been dating FSU women for 20 years now and I don't intend to stop. "You are giving us a bad name" If you're British, you are you already have a bad name. British are notorious for being a bunch of drunks around the world. I've run into plenty of them in Ukraine and they are no less sex tourists than any other nationality I've encountered. Even worse. Perhaps you can get off your high horse for a while and learn from those of us who are a little more experienced in these matters.
4re_geo I would leave it alone and chalk it up to experience. Having gone through this you will be better prepared should you decide to pursue a serious relationship with a FSU. I know because I've gone through the same experiences you have and more. What doesn't kill you will make you stronger, wiser.
' She has removed her profile from fiance.com a long time ago and I doubt she will reappear. I will report her to scammer databases with her current family name, as well as her maiden name and all other names she has used to this date. '
Do you know what a scam is geo?? Do you actually know what 'love' is? Let it go, let it go.Your story is similar to many I have heard.....guys fall in 'love' with words and pics and usually find someone way out of their league( based on what they can find at home). When things don't work out, they find faults with girls. YOU were told directly( in letters) about some faults of this girl in your story yet you ignored them.........until you met in person and didn't like what you saw.....well, welcome to the world of international dating!!
You really sound like a spurned guy and look for some type of revenge. Some kind of justification that you did nothing wrong and girl is the problem. Just move on and chalk one up for experience. Many guys make the same mistake of letting their imagination run on too far. I don't mean to pick on you, I hope the best for you in the future, I just hope people read your story and learn. As for advices, I have my 3 C's: cautious, careful and control.
I do not entirely agree with you. 4re was really to blame for his naivety of which the girl clearly took advantage. However, he was also to blame for acting as a sex tourist. If he says he was in love, it does not justify the actions of the girl.
He has listed the things about which she lied; that makes her a scammer. He must have lied too. I know he suppressed the truth here for several weeks.
I do not know what your idea of sex in a loving relationship is but my idea is that sex happens spontaneously and naturally between two people who have already been in the presence of each other and who feel affection for each other.
Your belief that there was love at the time that you were communicating with her through the net is like the thinking of a teenager. Your talk and plans, in Skype, about your future sexual encounters were nothing more than that of a man negotiating with a prostitute before going to see her. I also find rather disgusting how you took sexy underwear to her and asked her for specific sexual activities from the time you first met her!. DON'T YOU SEE that is what men do with prostitutes? You take expensive presents, you spend a lot of money on her and you get sex. Do you not understand that this is paying for sex? Christ!
Somehow now I think that you got what you deserved.
I rest my case about Skype.
I have never seen such a train crash of an FSU Woman-Western man encounter like this one.
Fair points from all. Mistakes were made. The blame is on me (no sarcasm intended). I am a grown up man, I can take criticism and learn. I also think that this thread can be a lesson to many. I am not a sex tourist. The sharing of information about physical intimacy occurred because so much had already been shared otherwise. It was a natural thing and there was nothing dirty in it. I disagree that bringing lingerie to a girl makes one a sex tourist. I went to see her because I loved her and I thought it was mutual. I still love her. It was very wrong that she disappeared and did not reply to my emails of phone calls. This made me think she might be a scammer. When we separated, there was no indication that something was wrong. She had asked me what time I would be home and we had agreed to Skype that same day.
I am not a liar as wifeseeker suggests. I did not suppress the truth. Who wants to make public spectacle a potential future wife. I waited to see if she would reply. Her sudden and unexpected behavior was very painful to me. I was looking for answers. I posted details in the forum when I suspected she might be a fraud. I wanted to receive feedback from others who might have had similar experiences. She has replied now. She says we do not fit each other. She claims miscommunication was the problem. She says it was a mistake that the meeting occurred too quickly. She should have learned English before we met. She says she has feelings and it is currently painful for her. She says I am a good person. She also says she is a difficult character. I am trying to reconnect with her now. If it does not work out, I will let her go. I have no intention reporting her as a scammer regardless of the outcome. You can make your conclusions.
You have been a sex tourist for 20 years and you are here giving advice on relationships with FSU women. Don't make me laugh! So you have been (un)successful looking for a wife over there for 20 years or you have been successful as a sex tourist for 20 years? take you pick, More like both.
Are the prostitutes in your country more expensive than your sex trips to Ukraine? No, you do it out of sheer contempt for Ukrainian women. Why do you think that 'girlfriend' of yours will not commit to marrying you and going to your country? She can see right through you. She will not marry you and go with you to be your own personal prostitute. I know a man, here in Britain, just like you who married a Ukrainian lady; poor woman, he marries her and then takes a succesion of prostitutes throughout her married life. Give me you 'girlfriend's' email address and I will put her in touch with this lady so that she learns all about men like you.
I suppose you do not realise you are using the same bulldrivel that you critise in women over there: they say "All Ukrainian men are drunks" you say "All British men are drunks" Yep you have definitely learned.
The one same experience, as 4re, you have been through is going over there to have sex with a girl and then adding her to your list of sex objects/scammers.
Do 4re a favourm stop giving him advice.
In my last post about her reply email, I failed to mention an important statement she made at the end of it:
"I didn't have enough of something from you. I don't know specifically what I didn't have enough".
I have shared her previous letters with two close friends who have told me I was being gullible and played from the beginning. I just shared this last email, as well. They told me that what she didn't have enough from me was a far more liberal attitude with my wallet. I should not persist and just write off the experience as a lesson.
She was satisfied with the presents (this is why she thanked me at the end). But she also expected ongoing financial support. She gave me plenty of opportunities in the letters as well as in the meeting. I was suspicious the whole time, but she never asked for something explicitly. Her approach was to throw the bait and wait to see my reactions. It was either English lessons, or lawyer fees, or not being able to afford to move to a better apartment in a safer neighborhood or her boss threatening not to pay her wages during our meeting, or her boss threatening to fire her. I may have been gullible overall, but did not fall for any of these baits. Offering ongoing financial support especially so early has a name. It is called sponsorship and is very common over there. I did not get involved with her to become her sponsor. She said she makes 4,500 UAH per month. This is less than 400 US. I could send her twice as much every month and not even blink. The point is that just as she was testing me during our meeting, I was testing her, too. I noticed she was picky about restaurants and hotels and noticed the comments she made. I noticed that she always refused to take the metro and asked for taxi every time. I also noticed her frustration when the baits were not working during our meeting. She made statements like: "I no sleep translation letter blah blah blah". In the letters, she painted an entirely different picture. I was not a sex tourist and am not interested in being a sponsor. I am also not interested in marrying a woman who deceives me to believe that she is not in for the money but indeed this is her only incentive. If I wanted to be a sponsor of a young, attractive girl, I could do it in the U S of A. There are dating sites for this. No reason to travel to friggin' Ukraine for sex with a sponsored girl. I would not mind a summer fling as long as we were forthcoming with each other, it was at a better place and did not spend so much time on emails. However, I would probably have gone for a better looking girl. I visited her and only her because she convinced me she was real and honest. Nothing fancy or model looking, petite girl, pear-like body, sweet honest-looking face. She did not strike me as someone who had the skills to do this professionally. Her simplicity and willingness to invest time in me was what deceived me.
I am going to wrap this up now. It was a very bad and very time consuming experience for me. I hope this information will be useful to others. All comments have been fair and helpful. I think TomZ's description best fits my experience: soft scam where the girl makes an assessment of the prospective target via pictures and other information (especially tangible information in my case), she develops certain expectations about her return on investment of time and a plan, she then invests time on luring the target to visit her. She shows up and tries her best to deliver to the target's expectations, needs, desires (which she has already made sure she knows well through correspondence). In return, she expects presents and ongoing financial support. She evaluates the situation and she decides whether further involvement and investment of her time would be profitable.
In my case, she figured she had a nice one time return on investment of her time through the presents. She was interested in an annuity type income stream. She didn't get it. As a result, she wants to move on to the next target. She replied to my requests for contact to appease me in order to avoid tarnishing of her reputation. My guess is she will be out probably on another web site soon. Now, she has an international passport and she can travel overseas, as well. I will let her suck from someone else's wallet. For this purpose, she would probably be better served approaching Arabs or Turks.
One more thing to Wifeseeker: you got it wrong man about my bringing of sex materials" (lingerie) to Ukraine as a surprise to her. She knew that I was bringing them to her. I showed them to her on Skype two weeks before my trip, all of them. I took them out of the box and laid them in front of my TV for her (I have Skype on one of my big screen TVs). I asked her if it is ok to show her and she said no problem. She joked that she expected to see fluffy handcuffs. I mentioned in my previous posts that we discussed the sexual encounter in the letters in detail (not dirty details). This was not my initiative. I did it on her request to talk about physical intimacy. We both knew we would have sex the very first night. She joked that our meeting will be Armageddon and I joked it would be Vesuvius. I did not mislead her and then took advantage of her as you suggest. It was the other way around. Just read my posts. I also told her on Skype that I am only bringing the lingerie for her because I was not sure whether she would like my other gift ideas or whether they would fit her. I said, I will take you to the stores in Kiev to buy you a nice evening dress so we can go out. She agreed. In Kiev, she told me that she had an evening dress, and she would rather get high-heel shoes and a handbag. We spent three days in the stores until she found exactly what she wanted and I also bought her an Italian designer jacket that she liked. By the way, we discussed about presents several weeks before my trip and she emailed me all her body dimensions, shoe size, bra size, cup size, everything. I was certain that the whole thing was innocent. Of course, I have everything I claim on gmail, as well.
Selkie, my opinion is based around the international dating seen in Ukraine.
this industry as far as i'm concerned full of women who are damaged goods or people out for a buck.
just as there are many western males searching there that are basically rejects from their own country.
why i mentioned you, basically it was your bad luck at the time of posting, been Ukrainian and not been overly constructive but more belittling.
if you cannot understand the belittling part then i really rest my case.
see Selkie i am maybe cold in some areas but i try not to be heartless, i do agree with you but some things just dont need to be said, specially when its not constructive when people are hurting yes.
strangely woman are supposed to nurture not crush anyway:)
so you can chalk that up to one of those life lessons yeah:)
but we do have a saying here, "there comes a time "you cannot teach an old dog new tricks"
so if you dont take on such as a life lesson then you are a woman:)
so are you still a girl?? google the proverb if you dont understand it.
dont get me wrong Selkie,, i have a lot of time and respect for your country and its people, i just dont have any time for the industry involving the heart and most of its girls woman that surround such for their own means.
i know to when people are just using others(most of the time) so we are on the same page yes..
One song title for you (Beatles): Can't buy me love. You will be getting somewhere in your future search when you start accepting that you were paying for sex.
The worry is that you are starting to think like TomZ: you did all this with an FSU woman; would you have done it with a marriage prospect woman of your own country? No, because you were thinking like TomZ: "they are all promiscuous there" so you want to join the party and if you find a wife in the process, fine.
You just keep talking about how you discussed sex with a webcam girl who then was a prostitute.
"I have no intention reporting her as a scammer regardless of the outcome"
You totally misunderstand the purpose of this forum and scammer data bases, we are supposed to be helping each other. Report her for the people who helped you here. Give something back.
"WS who made you God to judge us?"
Yes, put together a team for you if you think that it will be your defence for regarding the FSU as one big brothel.
Thank you for response. No frankly, I do not understand where I was [objectively] belittling or hurtful, and towards whom. Pinpointing or quoting might be helpful. But as you are resting your case, I have to live on unhelped. )
Perception rulezz: when you suggested I googled the old dog proverb, I might have said you were being patronizing ))
If back to the topic: I see your point re "industry involving the heart". I never used industry services myself so I did not think in these terms...
Or better: I do know FSU dating industry exists and is full of... diversity, on either side.
But what I fail to get is why is it still in demand in this digital day and age. (Apart from its "commercial" side being an attraction.)
And frankly, I do not understand why agencies are still in demand in this digital day and age. The only answer I have is language (or lack thereof).
4re's train crash story has been an eye opener and lesson for me too. If I try to build a relationship leading to marriage, on sex, especially from the beginning (Skype and first meeting) I am heading for disaster.