4re_geo you hit it on the head. The trend now are these "soft scams" to generate an income stream and it's not only from one man. They want to generate sponsorship from 10-15 guys or as many as they can. It is a business.
She dumped you when she saw that you were not going to provide her the income stream that she wanted - though she used you for what she could while you were there.
Only by being armed with knowledge can we fight these scams and make others aware.
Personally I would never talk of sex before meeting. This would set off alarm bells and sirens for me. If it happens naturally then it happens. If she's talking sex before meeting she's some kind of escort or professional.
WS - you're certainly not one to give out advice. How successful have you been? The relationship with the woman you went to see in Crimea has probably ended because you didn't want to pay her English lessons and she resents you for it. You didn't want someone else to benefit from her English should the relationship not work out. Well, it's not worked out. Hope you have learned from your mistakes.
I am quite happy with my current gf in Ukraine and it's our business if we decide to marry. And no, you can not have her email address.
The agencies are in demand because new single people keep constantly going online searching for new people to date. When you have the language barrier, you need to either use an online translator, a personal interpreter that you know, or a third party intermediary to facilitate the conversation. The very last of that group can often assist with travel arrangements and providing gifts and delivery items to the foreign country. So, convenience and "one stop shopping" are often the reasons for giving the agency the customer business.
I placed several profiles on multiple sites and have gotten the usual massive "spam" contacts from people from many different age groups. The vast majority are highly suspect and most end up with the "help me, I cannot continue writing to you because I am out of money" plea. I have also used a few pay per letter contacts on the dating sites. This could also be seen as another form of the "translation fee" con. The women appear to be genuine (seen through video) and the conversation has mostly been about personality, past experiences, and future hope topics. I have only replied about once per week, so if they should really be insincere, the $$$ kickback will come very slow and eventually end. I will vet the out the process for the few that keep in contact with me. I am basically a boring, simple, reserved, and frugal kind of guy. If you can stick with me for any extended period of time, then maybe you might be worth considering after all. I will proceed with the viewpoint that success is nearly impossible, but if it should fall into my lap, I will be very pleasantly surprised.
4re_geo, you made some massive blunders, but it is better to have loved than lost etc. And this post has been the best read here for months! It's very informative (and sometimes entertaining) when people make the effort to write in detail about their experiences.
"I would never touch these girls. By the way you should have an HIV check and other. I'm serious about this. Many of these Ukrainian girls are heartless vampires or just basically damaged goods. It's just how it is."
Kiwinorth, you devil. A bit unfair (but very funny).
"The agencies are in demand because new single people keep constantly going online searching for new people to date. When you have the language barrier, you need to either use an online translator, a personal interpreter that you know, or a third party intermediary to facilitate the conversation. The very last of that group can often assist with travel arrangements and providing gifts and delivery items to the foreign country. So, convenience and "one stop shopping" are often the reasons for giving the agency the customer business."
Thanks DC. One stop shop is a very good definition. Yes it probably makes it worth a try for Western guys.
On FSU girls' part, I think it starts with the language barrier as well. The rest is up to values in general, and priorities at the moment. IMHO.
Respect to your attitude of not having expectations. To my experience, what is yours just jumps at you when you are least aware :)
And do not call yourself boring - at least to women at an early stage. They don't need to know! ))))
If seriously, what might seem "simple and boring" for you might be a world of fun exploration for someone. I do not remember if my guy ever presented himself as such, but I know he could. Not true at all :)
I am compiling a list of takeaways from this unpleasant experience. When I have time to finish it, I will post it. This scam was one of a kind. I am over her now. The past is only relevant to the extent it affects the future and the only effect of this experience is the lessons learned.
dcguy: I think you have it right. Although you do not want to say in your profile that you believe you are boring, in your letters you can paint the picture. Why would you make a woman think that you are a different person? It will cost you down the road. If you are frugal, you should put it in your profile. In my view, one should under-promise especially when it comes to money, wealth, etc. It will help you weed out the gold diggers and the frauds. Take it from my own experience. There are women who will read and absorb information and develop expectations and will not ask but they will expect presents and on-going support (even if you have not promised it). Unfortunately, this is how the system works over there.
Wifeseeker: I am with you about not paying for English and not giving cash as support on an on-going basis for any reason. As TomZ has suggested, these "relationships" are very fluid and can range from "money for sex" to "marry and live happily thereafter". We cannot know until we know. Having bought some presents and "having gotten some" sort of takes the sting out. Sending cash to a woman over several months only to find out she's a fraud, it's just plain stupid. If she's serious about finding a foreign lifetime partner, she should invest her own money to learn English. Indeed if she were serious, she would have learned some English before she posted her online profile. Instead she insisted that I go to see her as soon as possible in a different place from where she lives and works. This woman expected on-going support and gave me plenty of opportunities. I did not take the bait and I am glad I did not. She tricked me because she gave me copies of her personal documents for the visa. I thought why would she do this if she were not honest. But do a google search and you will find that this is not uncommon. In fact, there are women who have several guys applying for a visa and giving them financial support in the meantime. I recall in one of her letters when she was trying to convince me she loved me and her feelings were genuine, she persistently told me that all the documents that I requested were ready and only remained to be notarized. Note that this was done less than two months after we were introduced. She added: if I did not really love you, why would I do all this? Indeed why else would she do it?
"It is amazing, I once started chatting to a girl...(...)"
Did the girl jump to "poor me" story soon after expressing her fondness? If yes, you met a rookie in the “business” - good for you :)
What I have to say on money/gifts at early stages.
Overall, I have observed 2.5 main versions of the stance among fellow FSU females:
1. A girl has no problem accepting (or may even feel entitled to) money - from the very moment of bumping into each other on the internet.
1A. Similar, with one little difference. Money in its monetary form seems to be a no-no, but expensive gifts are welcome - as is being taken shopping to designer stores during the first in-person meeting.
(A rather hypocritical position, to me - what are designer outfits/jewellery/whatever expensive goods if not an in-kind form of money.)
2. A girl feels uncomfortable to accept anything more than a souvenir/small-but-sweet token of attention showing fondness (e.g. flowers). Because too early is too early.
(However: Girls adept at manipulation might use the same way as a lure-in method, which you cannot exclude early on. So further observation needed - to see if any hints/requests/demands come later.
What is worth noting here as well is that guys may want to "show off" a bit during the courting stage, which is kinda natural. The thing is - for 1/1A girls with "entitlement", that might be misleading. Even if their primary motivation is not "milking" men but to start a relationship. When courting is over and day-to-day life has commenced, they might start missing the lavish part :) )
...Back to the point. Option 2 - marriage material possibly in sight - cue further observation :)
As for paying for English lessons... If it's a man offering this to a girl of his choice - well I don't know. As described by TomZ above, it can end in a mutually satisfying couple life. (Which I believe - seen examples.) I personally would not feel at ease if offered.
But if it is a girl proactively suggesting to a man she never met (!) to pay her English lessons, "so that they can talk when they meet"... If I were a guy, I would feel wary.
Here it seems a good idea to pop a question - and when are we actually meeting btw? The answer she gives might help... a little.
This is just my personal opinion, but I think the FSU dating scene has been "corrupted" by attempting to imitate the western idea of a date. Here in the USA, if I were to take a date to McDonald's and a walk to the zoo, I would be considered to be a "cheapskate" and "unworthy" potential husband. Most women in this country would not tolerate such type of dates. Back some 15 years ago, I was introduced to women by relatives and their friends from Asia. The "date" usually just involved some chatting in an informal setting (like a noodle shop or small restaurant) and if we wished to talk more privately, we would go window shopping at the local stores or to a park. There was never any expectations of gift purchases or fancy dining. In fact, on several occassions, the lady would give to me an item to remember them by (such as a hand made craft item or small souvenir). It was as if they were saying, "I hope that you remember me and consider me in the future". This is not to say that the FSU dating scene is not also seen in other parts of the world. I guess my thinking about dating is that the lady on the "lower economic scale" has the stronger impetus to get the attention of the foreign man instead of the other way around. But again, it might just be the cultural differences.
The language barrier is definitely a major obstacle regardless of which part of the world that is being considered.
I am a bit of an empathic person, so I attempt to "place myself in the other person's shoes", so to speak. From a physical standpoint, I would personally judge myself quite low on the male image scale, so I do not try to make a false impression with another person. I have seen in other relationships where certain hidden traits and "false images" of oneself were later uncovered which then strained that relationship. I do understand that you do not want to "sell yourself short", but I would rather have the other person know exactly who and what they were getting into before the commitment is made.
From using some of the dating sites, I have been corresponding with two ladies on a continuing basis. One in the late 20s whose says that her demeanor has changed since getting to know me and that she thinks about me all of the time. The other is in her mid-30s and is a bit desperate about making a family given her age. The communication has stayed, for the most part, on talking about our past history, what type of person we are, and what are the hopes for the future. There has been no talk of intimacy other than my age that might be a concern for a younger person. I have only contacted them for just a few months so I will not be pushed into any rash action. Also, one of my "bad" traits is procrastination. If I should miss the "golden opportunity", well then maybe I was the "frog" that distracted her from finding her "prince".
Just my two cents worth.
Sorry to divert the discussion away from the original post.
" It is my personal opinion that serious relationships with girls from over there are not worth the time and risk. "
well thank you for thinking that me and all my friend are just pieces of crap... If you were stupid from the beginning then don't blame all Ukrainians! Blame yourself!
Sorry to talk about you 4re
Yes, I have to say that he is playing the victim. OK, he was naive, but I am sure he would not have treated a woman of his own country like an easy way to get sex.
A lady just sent me a message: "If you are one of those who want to talk sex on a webcam, you are wasting your time with me"
He still will not accept that he was trying to buy love (and sex).
He went from saying that he had met the most wonderful girl in the world to none of them is worth it.
"As for paying for English lessons... If it's a man offering this to a girl of his choice - well I don't know. As described by TomZ above, it can end in a mutually satisfying couple life. (Which I believe - seen examples.) I personally would not feel at ease if offered"
I would not pay for the English lesons until she is here with me but in the case of my (ex) girl, she is not willing to learn and that would mean money down the drain.
Selkie: You make a very great point in that we may feel the need to show off during courting. In retrospect, I believe I did this. I did not overstate anything and in fact I understated and never promised anything specifically. Yet what seemed understated in my eyes may have seemed a lot more in her eyes. For instance, I sent too many flowers too often to her in the beginning. I shouldn't have. I also did not realize that she made her calculations from the few pieces of information in pictures and letters. While what I could offer her after marriage would easily blow away her expectations, I was simply not willing to do too much before marriage and especially during a first meeting. I wanted to first see proof of what she wrote in her letters and I did not see anything. In fact, I was very disappointed. I could not emphasize more that any form of monetary exchange (whether presents or money for English or other purpose) should be out of the question. It is a major mistake. In fact, if you send her flowers, send a small, symbolic bouquet in her birthday only.
dcguy: I disagree. In my experience, my first dates with American women I meet online are always at a coffee shop or for a drink. It is a very common approach and very acceptable to both parties. In fact, if you take the woman out for an expensive dinner right away, you signal that you are needy and you probably do not get many other dates, so you have a tendency to jump the gun and try to impress. Second date can be a dinner maybe. If you invite the woman to a second date for dinner or whatever, you are expected to pay. If she invites you, then she is expected to pay. I currently have three first dates scheduled for next week and they are all for coffee at a mutually convenient location.
moyarishka: You may not realize it but you make my point. Thanks for the compliments by the way! What exactly you found offensive in my statement? I was talking about time and risk. In my short experience, I spent a whole lot of time trying to navigate through tens of obvious scammers and then focusing on one woman who seemed genuine proved to be too risky. I can date several American women who are 4-6 years younger than me and share similar interests until I find one that fits me well. I do not have to spend a whole lot of time before I realize that I should move on and it's not risky since these women have jobs, are independent and are not after my money. Or, I can spend three months with a Ukrainian woman who is 10-20 years younger than me and manipulates me to correspond with her exclusively and even make a long distance trip to see only her and then dumps me because I did not meet her expectations (most likely not being generous enough).
another fine example of ukrainian girls flying off the handle before thinking about what was said or just excepting what is very real about their world.
have we met Moya?
you could have asked why i have this opinion, i would have been happy to explain..
i have read a lot of stuff you have wrote, i have never thought you were,,, as you state.
actually i find you rather interesting:0 could this be a match made in heaven?
Moya, i'm sorry your country has problems,,, possibly indefinite problems by Ukraine's example of itself in the last 20 years and the recent events.
myself what i have experienced in Ukraine is like a coin, on one side its heads up and the other side its just all ass.
this is why your country is labeled third world, i'm sorry.
what comes with third world is very little morals in general how one treats a fellow person.
facts are just facts, why should i dig through garbage bins to find her?
and can i ask why would you put yourself amongst that same garbage where as Selkie has already asked why they even exist when there are other avenues to meet people?
are you on a agency register Moya?
look i could dig endless rubbish up about your county (which i also have personal experiences of)
its just not a good look or productive in this thread,, i do feel for you lot.
but i did not say anything that isnt new to get your(i would hope) beautiful nickers in a twist.
my fair bride,, maybe??
i will admit i was a bit hard on Selkie (she forgives me:) sorry Selkie i thought your comment "This verbal syrup" was a bit off.
any negative feed back for many tends to shut up shop from whom is telling the story, and 4re's story should be unsolicited for others to take on Ukraine's picture today in the commercial dating seen without negatives or others just knocking him.
so my sweet thing, before we meet,, all i'm getting at is think before ya speak or put stuff to print, just dont go over generalizing like us men, its not a good look.
" It is my personal opinion that serious relationships with girls from over there are not worth the time and risk. "
Change “girls” to “agency girls” and I agree 100%!
I never thought dating was difficult before I had a computer,,,,, I just ran out of women to date.
Dcguy above called the fsu dating scene “corrupted”,,,,, yeah! We foreign men are not nearly as cynical as we should be. We’re lied to at every step of the way,,,,,, and probably giving them a tip for it.
"i will admit i was a bit hard on Selkie (she forgives me:) sorry Selkie i thought your comment "This verbal syrup" was a bit off.
any negative feed back for many tends to shut up shop from whom is telling the story, and 4re's story should be unsolicited for others to take on Ukraine's picture today in the commercial dating seen without negatives or others just knocking him."
Yea no hard feelings :)
The irony is that my "syrup" comment was not on 4re's manner or wording. It was actually related to GIRL'S' manner. I should have explained that.
But if it still had knocking power towards 4re, then I regret it.
What I call syrup is something... excessive + hardly founded as yet. Like "realrealreal love" abundantly and repeatedly stressed by an online acquaintance early on, sometimes even before the first meeting in person.
Overall, when showing too early on in the dating process between adults, verbal syrup might be indicative of the person having this adolescent "in love with love" thing - OR, of them throwing the bait in for further manipulation (of whatever kind).
Sadly, it is so good to hear that can cause total eclipse of reason. In boys or girls alike - been there, done that.
With the wisdom of hindsight, I now know I should have said that all before and instead :)