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	Create New Topic   My Posts   My forum buddies   Invite friends   Private messages Russian brides > Main Forum > Westernisation Author Post geriatrix Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 9/30/2004 3:36:06 AM   Westernisation is a topic that simply will not go away. And here it is a bit older than this Forum. More than twenty years ago some people in the Sovjet Union complained about the American words (and quite probably the thoughts related to them) that 'sneaked' into the Russian language. But exactly what is meant by 'westernisation' here and now? Annika77 Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 10/1/2004 4:25:26 AM   Im not sure people here in that forum are educated enough to discuss that (encluding myself). To some people here that seem to be : girls are fat and eate hamburgers. Ptichka Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 10/1/2004 5:19:38 AM   it depends on where this topic will turn to:) I heard that western women don't allow men open the doors for them or give them a hand to step out of the bus, as this makes women a weak gender...is it true or not??? For me this is a rather interesting question:) nasfan6 Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 10/1/2004 6:50:12 AM   I don't know if the term westernisation is a correct term or not. If it encompasses radical feminism then that might be correct. There was a time in the States that roles were defined by gender. Not necessarily making one gender better than another, but defining what was important for the traditional family. I still open doors for women and extend them courtesies that their gender deserves. A lot of times you will get strange looks from women for doing those things. I am old fashioned in my values and I grew up in the 1960's and 70's. It was still popular to have some chivalry. I had the traditional family growing up. Dad worked mom stayed at home until I was of school age and then she went to work I think out of pure boredom. Now it's all gender competitive. I still have problems with women serving in the military. Not that they can't do it, but it's not place for a woman in combat. Just my opinion. Men here have lost respect for many women because of the feminist movement in the states. It's not about equal pay for equal work, or the right to political redress. Their agenda now is the total emasculation of men. What is funny though, I'm not sure that is what they want. I don't think the feminist movement knows what it wants. Is westernisation to have the house with the two cars and the 2.3 kids. Is westernisation the giving up the time honored values of what defined us as men and women? Is westernisation the worship of material things over emotional and spirtiual needs. I think the word needs to be defined itself. Is westernisation truly an American by product of an evolutionary process that started years before in Europe. I am still told today that many of the enlightened thinkers of our time are still in Europe, especially France. I do not think that opening doors for a lady or offering to help them carry things or help them step off or on to a bus makes them a weak gender. For me it is an extension of courtesy to their gender because I value highly their position in the world. Women perform things that it is impossible for men to do. I don't think westernisation is a good term. Maybe gender blending is more appropriate. No matter how much I could try I could never have the maternal instinct that a woman has. In the same token a woman cannot perform certain things that a man brings to the table. To me westernisation is gender competition and blending. To blur the lines of what defines woman and man as unique individuals that we were created to be. I think if we asked different people to define what westernisation is the answers would be unique. Nothing really consistent. Ptichka Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 10/1/2004 6:59:32 AM   You know today I visited one forum, women's forum...how sorry I was that I did this!!! There was a topic "Me, my boyfriend and money", the girl said that she lives with a man in one of European countries and she works but doesn't earn as much as him, and he asked her to pay some of the bills, as they live together. But she said noway, I live in your house so you should pay all the bills, and also I don't do anything about the house as I'm very very tired after the work, she works 6 hours a day...and so on. So I guess this is the matter of egoism, is it so??? What do you think? By the way on that forum, many many girls agreed with this situation, and they said that they are dreaming about that... crashnsplash Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 10/1/2004 7:14:55 AM   Very good thought Ptichka. For me, its not even a question in my mind about my lady paying any bills. Whatever money she makes she will spend as she wants. If I wanted a roommate I can go out and get one. She quit her job and already changed her whole life for me. What kind of man would I be if I asked her to pay some of my bills. Thats an absurd thought for me. Of course what she will decide to do with her money is her choice, but I will never suggest to her that she must pay some bills. Of course I am in a position to not have to worry about it. But if I was I still would not ask her to do it. I'm sure there are many different opinions about this topic. davey Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 10/1/2004 9:50:39 AM   Some thoughts on westernization. I think it goes much deeper and wider than feminism, the loss of chivalry etc. In my observation the differences between Eastern European society and Western society are the following: (Western perspective) - Gender alienation, and feminism is but one part of it. - Social alienation, caused by social darwinist principles. Money is king and success is measured only in dollars. The pursuit of money becomes the sole purpose in life. The deterioration of family life, the loss of empathy for fellow human beings. There are more lonely people in Western cities than anywhere else. - Cultural alienation, i.e. a loss of cultural values. The replacement of cultural values by shallow values where the profit motif is more important than anything else. The pursuit of instant gratification entertainment (measured in thrills per minute) in preference to activities that contribute to personal growth. You know the shallow movies with exaggerated special effects and very little substance. Rock stars become famous for the scandals they cause, not for artistic merit. Scandal becomes synonymous with merit because profit is the only objective, and scandals and shock tactics let sales soar. Scandals are sometimes fabricated to incease popularity. Girls aspire to marry rock stars instead of leaders in society. I am not saying that the FSU does not have problems of its own, it certainly does, but these problems have an entirely different origin and nature. scottlf Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 10/1/2004 10:31:23 AM   Ptichka, If they are not married, the answer can be a bit muddled, but I don't think the issue was about her paying his bills, but more of "their bills". To me, this applies to telephone, electricity, or other bills for services they are both using. In all fairness, if that is the case, he is justified in asking her to pay a share of those expenses. If there was an agreement before they moved in together, I might see this being a different argument. In the U.S., 6 hours a day is not even a full work day, either. Of course, Toad might pipe in and ask if she is paying her share with sex! Ptichka Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 10/1/2004 10:47:57 AM   Scott, it was that the man asks his girl to pay for some of their bills, as you correctly said. For example for electricity and phone. I don't know if there was any agreement, but what I didn't like is that the girl says "he should do everything for me, and I should do everything for myself"...strange...or maybe this man is a slave to this girl...? groon Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 10/1/2004 11:44:49 AM   Sex doesn't pay the bills and they are room mates shaggy47435 Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 10/1/2004 12:24:23 PM   Ptichka, I think that in your story it is sad. In all if these two truly care for one another neither the money nor the job would be an issue to either. Both would share as equally as they could to pay the bills and share in the housework. Neither would find contempt in giving all that they had for the other. I think that many think that to provide for someone means to take care of them but to me it means that you work with them and share in those task. To be honest and share all with each other is to truly care and provide for each other. The notion that the provider (I say provider because this story is just as applicable both ways) should do all is what we refer to a goldbricker that does not care for the provider only that he or she provides. This is nothing but lazy selfishness and will never grow a relationship no matter how meek or in love the provider. I think everyone dreams of the easy life without work and someone to wait on us but when it comes to it is truly a shallow and lonely state of existence. Look at the divorce rates of such couples and you will understand it just does not lead to any kind of successful loving relationship. Greed and selfishness are the main faults in the evil westernization but like others have said that name is misleading, as it is a human faults not a western fault. To those who dream of such I feel for them as they have missed out on life’s greatest gifts and understandings. Anyone who dreams of being above work and their spouse are lost and maybe the least deserving of such treatment. Anyway that’s how some of us feel about it. tradman Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 10/1/2004 12:42:33 PM   Ptichka and Annika, you are both right, westernisation means in the case of many women, lazy, fat and eat hamburgers, whats yours is mine and whats mine is mine, a dislike of men who treat them with courtesy and politeness, getting drunk, swearing, the list goes on GLTALLTOAD Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 10/1/2004 1:16:22 PM   Pitchka, What you described about that girl in the ladies' forum is referred to in the US as a "gold digging, freeloading, lazy, self centered bitch". Nothing more, nothing less. Some men may think it's worthy trade if she is good in bed. But in most cases those arrangements are short lived. Davey, "...The pursuit of money becomes the sole purpose in life..." Those who do, surely live their lives on a half empty shell. HOWEVER....how do you reconcile the irrefutable fact that at government, private and individual levels, the richest in the world, the ones you call void of social empathy for fellow human beings are also the ones footing the bill for the vast majority of charity and funding for humanitarian causes when needed in those sam levels?? I have never agreed with the socialist concept that domestic (US) or european lazy, good for nothing intellectualoid arm chair quarterbacks insist on labeling capitalistic societies as void of empathy, sympathy and compassion for their fellow human beings Quite the contrary. We, the hard workers with self discipline, goal oriented, productive mentalities are better equipped to help our fellow human beings than any lazy liberal thinking freeloader who does not create or produce anything but like a good 'ol communist wants a share of what everyone else has.... Davey, I'm willing to bet that reading Ayn Rand's work make your skin crawl, doesn't it?...:) toad PS: I'm gone fishing ....yes again, lol!! groon Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 10/1/2004 1:38:28 PM   Ptichka: "You know today I visited one forum, women's forum...how sorry I was that I did this!!! There was a topic "Me, my boyfriend and money", the girl said that she lives with a man in one of European countries and she works but doesn't earn as much as him, and he asked her to pay some of the bills, as they live together. But she said noway, I live in your house so you should pay all the bills, and also I don't do anything about the house as I'm very very tired after the work, she works 6 hours a day...and so on. So I guess this is the matter of egoism, is it so??? What do you think? By the way on that forum, many many girls agreed with this situation, and they said that they are dreaming about that... " My last girlfriend lived with me as well. I made 3 times what she made. I paid rent, utilities, internet, and cable. She paid the phone bill which wasn't very much at all and she insisted on paying a portion of our rent. She understood she was not my wife and I was not obligated to take care of her. She also did not feel right allowing me to pay for what I was already paying for but she was in no financial position to pay more than what I was allowing her to pay. Let me tell you if she felt I had to support her she would have been out on the street the moment those words left her lips... How is soemone who is NOT your wife going to expect you to support them? PLUS why the hell would I want to be with someone who feels some sort of entitlment when BEFORE she is married to you? My wife and the mother of my children is quite another matter. I will want and expect her to want to be home with the children. Your revelation of how the women in the forum view this gives me reason to think this is a bad idea. The only thing giving me hope is the Moldovian girl I am writing to. She has recently told me that she does not need gifts from me. She said the only thing she needs from me is the attention and affection I show her in my letters. That can still just be lip service but it showed me where her head and heart are. I was impressed. :-) tradman Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 10/1/2004 5:13:48 PM   Groon, my girl is from Moldova and I am struggling a little with her concept as well. One day she said to me, that the man should buy everything, I happen to agree on a certain level, but little alarm bells were ringing. I asked her if she wanted to work after we were married, she said she would like to, once the baby was old enough, if I did not object... I thought hmmmm, then she said, she would have her wages paid directly into my bank account, and all she would like is some money for personal items. My fears that she might be like the above were allayed.She is not stupid about money, she is an economist and very thrifty, but not sure I can live with concept of her giving me carte blanche with her earnings gladiatorUK Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 10/1/2004 5:16:01 PM   trad: why not pay it into a seperate account for her???....just a thought.:)) tradman Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 10/1/2004 5:18:17 PM   I agree with you Nasfan, my girl irons and cooks for me and attends to anything I want with pleasure, that does not make her downtrodden or a slave, I appreciate a great deal that she does these things with pleasure. On my part, I enjoy opening doors, pulling out chairs, helping her take off or put on her coat, this is not because I think she is weak, surely anyone is strong enough to pull out their own chair, they are all just subtle things that make male/female relations pleasurable davey Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 10/1/2004 5:19:54 PM   Toad, I am not a socialist. I am a full blooded capitalist. And while capitalism is desirable, produces the highest measurable standard of living and is the best economic system known to man, it is not perfect. It does produce a number of undesirable side effects such as inner city decay, rising crime rates, increasing social and cultural alienation etc etc. Sure, capitalism also produces the deep pockets with which the most urgent social issues such as crime, hunger, city decay etc are addressed. But I do not see social, cultural and gender alienation being addressed. It is the result of money, not the result of a lack of money. I feel that some of the factors I mentioned are to blame for the perceptions of Western women by Western men, and vice versa. The feminism cries are becoming a bit monotonous. The problem is not one dimensional and limited to feminism only. These women like us, are the products of our societies and our economic system. For every man complaining about western women I am sure there is one western woman complaining about our men. The problem is gender alienation. It is a result of our inherent inability to cope with the sweeping changes that we have introduced in society and business. People are to some extent the product of the societies they live in. I noticed less gender alienation in Russia - there it is much more natural to approach a strange girl and start chatting to her, without being viewed with suspicion. I also believe there is much less cultural alienation - smutty rap artists are not as popular as in the West yet, but I am sure this will change. In my experience there is less social alienation too - it seems to me that friendships are often warmer and more genuine, and that applies to family bonds too. There is definitely more empathy in relationships between ordinary people than I am used to - I have two married couples in Russia as close friends, and it has struck me several times. To me this is not a result of some magic inherent in the principles of communism or socialism. I could be be a result of the adversity people experienced in difficult times - the same adversity that causes other undesirable phenomena such as high levels of alcoholism and prostitution. Why is it that many men in search of the perfect Russian bride avoid the big cities in the FSU? Is less exposure to feminism is the only factor? Many men state openly that it is because the women in the smaller cities are less westernized - in doing so they actually admit that westernization has a negative side. You have to take these differences into account when you take your Russian bride to the west. She will enjoy an overall higher standard of living, but the other factors I mentioned may cause feelings of alienation, loneliness and home sickness. I know of two relationships that failed on account of these factors. These were not pre-meditated green card scams, although it might look like this in retrospect. The men involved admitted to me that they underestimated the difficulties of adapting to a vastly different social environment, and probably could have been more sensitive to these issues. The social conditions experienced by your Russian bride may have given her the qualities you all desire so much, without that ever being the goal of the social system that produced these people. So there is my thinking, Toad. I know you have a sharp mind and a sharp tongue. No harm done in debating these issues, it is to the benefit of us all. My personal fear is that we may all underestimate the challenges faced by an FSU woman in the West. Especially if you hand picked her from a less westernized small town or city. gladiatorUK Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 10/1/2004 5:21:14 PM   one of the true romantics eh trad?.....seriously tho,my wife enjoyd those very same things,mostly because as she puts it "it shows I care for her",a little thought and attention goes a very long way,as I'm sure you have realised...:)) tradman Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 10/1/2004 5:37:06 PM   I am a romantic Glad, I like the was she always takes my arm when we are out, Her whole attitude makes me want to send her flowers every day. When I said she she have wages paid into my bank account, I did not mean to imply that she is weak or stupid, she told me when we had been seeing each other a few weeks, that I was in charge. She will abide by any decision I make, and she does it with good grace, even when it's not the decision she wants. However she is not some kind of doormat, she is the strongest woman I know, she will always argue her case. Her opinion is that, by giving me the authority to make make the decision, it avoids constant argument. When I make a decision that is the end of the matter. She said that sometimes I will make a decision that she does not agree with, but she trust me to never make the decision in purely my self interest, and that if I get it wrong, it will have been done with best intentions...Now I have made a few wrong decisions, she stuck to those decisions and never once said I told you so, or if you had listened to me...... how refreshing is that, I have to say though, that by giving me this authority, she is being very clever(maybe not intentionally) because now instead of arguing my self interest, I find myself looking at her interests and often acting against my own.......Think this is how it should be, and we have forgotten how to live in harmony Your Reply: Your name:   New Registration Password:   Forgot password?   refresh Code:   Russian brides > Main Forum > Westernisation
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