I will drop it as I feel only hostility from others and not any desire to truly discuss or learn from our debate. I again did not mean to argue abortion as I feel there is no way to truly justify the taking of innocent life for the sole reason of convenience. There is no way to allow the freedom of the woman without infringing on the rights of the baby and the father.
Though you are sure to argue I do not believe in killing people period as the first means to any solution but once investigated and a pattern of brutal killing is identified then yes I believe an eye for an eye and those who would live by the sword then justly deserve to die by it.
I am however human and understand that even the best desires to be helpful can result in loss and tragity. I did not condone the loss of life of innocent peoples but given the conditions and circumstances I understand why it happens.
My point through it all was that anyone willing to follow blindly either side of the debate was completely wrong but unfortunately the norm. It is not fair but an easy litmus test to determin the extend of the polar bindness to these issues that man will argue until the end of time.
Call me stupid call me full of retoric the simple truth is freedom is not free and to understand and realize such the consideration of others will always limit the true value and experience that it is. We are only as free as we are willing to become and until everyone can magically get along and understand the limitations of freedom there will never be peace nor freedom for anyone it is a gift of hard work and sacrifice not a given right because of your political views.
Jet my limitations thing is only refering to the rights of others not big brother. Yes to allow some of your freedoms to go to respect the rights of others is part of the equation. Thats all I am saying.
shaggy47435, I had absolutely no intention to offend you in any way and I extend my apology if in any way I offended you, which was not intentional. We had a somewhat heated exchange of views sometimes. That's about it. There is absolutely no hostility and I realize one can get defensive on a forum where you can't see the other person face to face. I've fallen for this in the past and I don't intend to repeat the mistake. I agree let's drop it, we all know now where each of us stands, there is no reason to beat a dead horse. You have strong feelings about certain things. I don't agree with you, but I respect the fact that we were able to have this debate in a civilized fashion. From my end, I learned quite a bit from this discussion. I learned your point of view, which I believe represents a large part of our society lately. It worries me that catalysts such as 9/11 causes so many people to change so much so quickly. We are a vulnerable nation with extreme sensitivity to external shocks. We are used to someone taking care of us and we are two oceans away from other nations to feel their pain. In any event, I am looking forward to continuing our exchange of views on other issues perhaps more related to Russian brides. I know you're going to Moldova and Latvia. I don't know how soon, but I wish you good luck and be careful.
I will have to disagree with you on your last statement that for once we agree on something as that would be twice that we have agreeed unless you count the time we agreed to disagree and then it would be three times but hey who's counting anyways, [";"]lol
No problem wtrav I understand completely. I do become overly excited when I know I'm right...lol only joking! I think I have learned much as well. I try very hard to stay on issues but when pushed I can chew it up with the best of them. I have extended an apology to Jet for my poor judgement as I did cross a line I prefer not to. I chose to do it privately but I think everyone knows why. I do apreciate your thoughts as well wtrav and I think if we look back far enough we agree on many issues as well. I think that sometimes it is the blindness of both polar extremes and in the end I think that was my message it was derailed a few times and as I said I am sorry I do not mean to offend but I do want to make people think hard about their views and yes consider mine and those of others. I chose this one because I knew there was no man that can truly answer the question and not to shit in the nest but maybe to stir it up a little. I think as Jet said wow do we really agree. I think we do more than we know and surely it speaks something that we from all the different walks of life we represent have settled on a common goal. We all regognize somethingn special here and with the task we have set out to accomplish. We al are hopeless romantics looking for happiness we have not found yet anywhere else. We are all much more alike than different and I think that with some common sense and some common standards we will all get along just fine. Again I am proud to be part of this community and though my views seem hard nosed I think there are those that remember when I was jabbed for being too touchy feely as well. So now I have shown the full gammit of my many sides. I have no secret knowledge that no one else does not and yes my shit still stinks. So that said I will hold back for comments from the gallery.
shaggy, you have posted enougth times to call this strand shaggy. You have missed some points as you do a lot of talking. I will only say one thing to you Iraq thing. You say America is peaceful but after the gulf war sudarm was attacted by ( I cannot remeber the name of thre group) and he was in trouble. Mostly because America had his aircraft groundes with a no fly zone. The story goes to the best of my recalable knowledge that America feared the group who would take power as they were themselves radicals and unpredicable. America enforce no fly for fighter jets but let his choppers fly. This is when he gassed the kerds and America let him do it, they just watched as it served them some purpose. Peacful you say, but always with some self interest in mind and that is why people hate America. asking the people to rise against Sadarm and then not realy backing them and in the end, double crossing them. Very humanitarian
Well Id I must say I am not surprised but I suppose you have proof that we watched.The fact that the UN was in charge at that time doesn't have anything to do with what Sadam got away with. Yes it is easy for you to sit on your ass and blaim america for the worlds problems and then bitch when we do something about it. If you can remember some facts that maybe you can prove then lets hear how it is americas fault and I will listen until then blow it out your aussie ass.
What did you do about this great injustice ID. Did you fly to help the kerds. Did you take potshots at the choppers with your sharp tounge in hopes to end the american oppression. You obviously have but one agenda and frankly I am tired of your attempts. It is funny how we got along just fine until you started your anti america propaganda campaine. I am american I support our government and our actions. Your pot shots and hate propaganda will not change who I am or what I do so please lets drop it as the others here have agreed to do.
Sadam was our American bitch. He was useful killing Iranians and getting his own people killed in the process, plus it made our little buddy Israel happy. What is funny to me is that after the eight-year conflict between Iraq and Iran ended that Sadam was worried about the huge debts that he had run up fighting the war. That is why he decided to take Kuwait since at one time it was part of Iraq. We could have told him no but we didnít. He was surprised when we pushed him out of Kuwait. If the Kurds had been Jewish we would have stopped the gassing.
Maybe but you overlook that Sadam had all the money he needed from the French, Germans and Russians in oil for weapons and other aid. He had no need other than his own greed to take Kuwait. Again I ask anyone to provide any information showing we knew he was gassing the kurds until well after the event took place and again I remind you the UN was in control of the operations at this time. Lets point the fingers in the right directions. The reason we did not finish the job the first time was to give in to the people then that of course sided with the enemy. The people who take more time picking salad dressings than deciding who to vote for. It would be a rosey world if it could be without war and conflict but until that day comes we can say all we want the simple truth is that we have removed him from power it has cost human life and it will continue to cause such until the people unite and force the terrorist out from behind the innocent victoms they hide behind. I have found very liberal estimates of civilian death since 2003 and it is between 14500 and 16500 not hundreds of thousands it includes all deaths from all military action as the site points out that of course every death is Americas fault. It is recognized as the official death counter by many of the left. Again it fails to compair with the Many more thousands that died in Iraq under the harsh conditions that the UN sanctions put on people. The aid was given to the government to keep and hoard while the innocent people that many claim loved Sadam so starved to death in the streets and died of common currable desiese. 12 Years of a people suffering did little to tighten his death grip on there daily lives. I have family on the ground and they tell me all the time how greatful the average people in the region are and how thankful they are to have health care and electricity and even just water that is safe to drink. How many more mass graves will we find in the deserts how many children starved to death in holes eating their own waste to survive before people stop this love afair for a man who in our history we can find few as cruel or inhuman. Why is it that every one loves this man as some kind of hero of the left. We have done the world a service and mostly the people of Iraq. For whatever reason can you not just let it pass.
If I had my way, and pay attention here, Since America is so hated by other countries for our support, I would pull every soldier home, tell the world to enjoy and defend themselves, stop sending foreign aid to countries, basically become an isolationist nation. See Mr. Putin has an Agenda, and if you think the big Red Machine is dead, spend 250 bucks and buy a vowel. If Mr. Putin doesn't have an agenda, then please explain to my dumb ass, why Ukraine and Now Turkey has become such a great interest in Russia? I don't see any other countries stepping up and Challenging, China, Russia, North Korea or other
Despotic Regimes. Oh but when the good Ol USA has the balls to take on a country or conflict all I hear is it is in our self
interest. That's Bullshit! So when these rogue regimes start rattling their sabres, the rest of the world can challenge them, we just sit back, drink a twelve pack and watch the ballgame. I wonder which country will be the first to step up to the plate and spill the blood of their youth for the freedom and safety of another country? So please name them? I will wait to hear which country or countries that will be. Yes America isn't perfect, but without us the communist manifesto would be required daily reading in most of the countries that bitch about us.
"...Yes America isn't perfect, but without us the communist manifesto would be required daily reading in most of the countries that bitch about us. "
But Europe never really forgave USA the Marshall Plan. (It is humiliating to be poor and receive gifts).
Of course it was not just to help poor war-torn Europe, it was in USA's interest to get Europe going again so communism would not find fertile ground.
It is interesting to compare West- and East-Germany.
Europe got into the habit of spending money to get rich (improve living standards) while USA took care of security after WW2.
Not taking any responsibility for security (in Europe as well as outside) gave Europe an excellent opportunity to critisise USA when USA tried to 'put out fires' or 'act as a world police officer'.
It is time for Europe to either spend some of its own resources or shut up!
As far as the UN, they couldn't organize a whore house. That is the most Rogue establishment ever created and it started with the league of nations. If you look a current atrocities that have happened in the last 30 years you will find on common denominator. The UN!! Enuff said on that organisation.
Like I said shaggy, I will not get into it anymore. One because all you do is wave your flag and 2, because it has killed this forum. It is not longer what it is surposed to be and that has been happening for a while. I could go on as I just in the past week on the news and in 2 docos have seen enough to make me think more of the same about you stupid elected governmet. On its inadicquate planes to go to war and the still to come forseable desarster this war will turn into with the shortfall of troops. But this is a forum abou FSU girl and the men who seek them. In a way I am reasponcable for starting this topic so I apoligise and will be back when all this shit is finished with. I have stayed away for a while but it seems nothing has changed much
Id, you are such a confused little man. Again the fastest assault in history.(so much for inadicquate planes...lol) All our soldiers signed up on there own! We are famous for the imposible with the improbable so again I fail to see your message has any merrit. I am sure it will be the same desarster (?) that Afganistan is. It is a shame the way those poor people had to elect their own government...so sad! But yes I am sure your anti american gloom and doom will surlely lick us all. Now Id will you please get over this and join the real world. The only reason for all the talk is the forum was slow over Thanksgiving here. You act as though we have changed the world and all we did was discuss what is happening in our world. I think its time you put your big pants on and grew up a little. Go shoot some roos and relax.