I'm sorry you had to be the guinea pig for all the other western men following.
And I thought Marina frowned on any form of drinking... maybe she does now after seeing you bleed, uh?
My drinking in Russia was nothing like the marathons, respect earning, life threatening contests Jet describes simply because I did not have to endure drinking with any russian men...(bless my luck stars..:))
When we went to Tobolsk we drank the local best vodka brand while we ate their frozen raw fish delicacy. We polished three small carafes.
Each one of them enough for 4 shots a piece of which I probably drank 2/3s over almost 1 1/2 hour at the table.
All of a sudden, with a giggle and silly look on her face, she did her best to get up and tried to walk like Chevy Chase when he was imitating Gerald Ford. that's when she said "Enough of this vodka, I'm drunk now, you better know how to find the hotel because I cannot even walk straight"
I didn't bother to tell her WE WERE in the hotel restaurant a few floors above our room floor. S
he thought we were still out walking all over the city visiting churches and historical buildings.
In Ekaterinburg we went to the Mexican restaurant CONQUISTA for lunch and she had an introduction to Mr. Cuervo via her first Strawberry Margarita.
Driest enchiladas I have ever tasted in my life..!!!
where are my beans..????
Well, fellows I have proof that Mr. Cuervo has the same effect on FSU women as it does on all the western ones..:)))
One margarita and she claimed to feel very happy already.
She was wise enough to avoid a second one becasue we had much walking to do later.
Beer never played any part while I visited. I don't like the stuff.
So, Izzi...how's the cone now?
What is the status with Marina?
Have you decided yet?
My head is fine Toad. I need to phone my doctor and make an appointment to get the stitches out.
Everything is fine with Marina, playing this one by ear but so far so good. There was a lot of misunderstanding which is sort of fixing itself. I am kind of testing her right now. Should be going back in late June/July for a couple of weeks and that will be the decider. If it doesn't work out there are plenty more out there. I have an inbox full of pretty ladies interested in me. I have made an investment of time, emotions and money with Marina though and I am not just going to let it go down the drain without being sure.
My advice to everyone here is not to take emails for granted or things that are said. There can be a lot of between the lines stuff that isn't necesarily bad stuff but can be confusing. I have an open mind and I think that is a positive. Sometimes what looks like a kick in the nuts isn't. She cares about me much more than any American woman has and it is really from the heart.
It never ceases to astonish me that a woman that looks like that (an 11) could be so non-materialistic. Not only that but she cares about me. Couldn't happen over here. Illustrated by a phone call I got today out of the blue from a Colombian I dated a couple of times. The things that woman said to me highlighted every thing that we hate about western women in a 5 minute conversation that caused me difuculty in not laughing out loud.
No I will hang in there with Marina and let this play out some more.
Marina doesn't frown on drinking she doesn't like people to drink themselves into a stupor all the time as so many Rissian men do. Getting a little stiff once a week at a night club isn't a problem. She is right I feel the same way. Who wants a drunkard?? I don't.
I joined site just as you left for your OE. I read allot of your posts that you did prior to you leaving.
Sorry about the accident, possibly some good may grow from it in the near future. I also think know what you mean above.
Sometimes they (FSU women) can be a little tactless compared to what we are used to. At least it is "what you see is what you get" with them. I like that. Dialogue conflict can cause confusion that brings about conflict and confrontation (be it knee-jerk)
Please correct me if I am off track here ???
Glad to know you're sticking to it for a second round in summer.
Marina should make a wonderful mate for you now that she knows you do not eat cats...domestic ones, at least...:))
You're correct. From what I saw among the people I met there, everyone seems like it upfront and almost a la "give it to me straight becasue if you do not, I'll think of you as a goddamn sissy lying bastard that cannot tell the truth" type of person.
I had to explain to Lena and her mother what the concept of being "politically and socially correct" means in our western, and specially american society.
They had a really really really hard time accepting it.
Hello Maxirat and welcome to the forum.
It is dificult to sort everything out. I wrote to Toad privately and was a hair away from jacking Marina in and moving on, he agreed with me. I am not going to go into the details but everything with my reasoning seemed valid on the surface. It needed deeper thought though. Fortunately my roommates lady friend spent a couple of hours with me allowing me to unload and dissect the problem. She had a really good handle on it and helped me a lot. Rare to find a western woman with such a generous, kind, understanding nature. It needed a woman though without a doubt.
It is all to do with understanding somebody elses underlying motivation and logic. PLUS this whole business of directness / tactlessness. It isn't always what it seems.
I wish I could cross reference this with other guys experiences but it is amost impossible to do. Marina's circumstances and background are unique to her. I am trying very, very hard to be understanding, patient, tolerant and not to jump to any conclusions.
I should be jumping into the forum more now because I have much to share. Let me make a start with this. When you start talking to an FSU woman make sure you find out where she is from. ie Just because she lives in Ekaterinburg don't assume that this is her hometown or her ethnic roots.
If you want sweetness and light stay away from women from the Caucuses, that is southern Russia, Armenia, Georgia and Aberbajan. If you think you can handle it fair enough.
Why I hear you ask.
I have had 2 go rounds with these women Marina being one of them. Don't assume that because they have blonde hair they are not cascus. It is important you find this out. They do not have the same value system as other women because of culture. The culture is not the same as the rest of Russia and they may have gone through experiences that will color the way they treat you. Then you feel hurt and put upon.
I am taking about blood feuds here, kidnapping and fathers killing their dishonored daughters. I am absolutely serious. Rape is used as a weapon to manipulate relationships.
Then there is the business of the way Russian men treat women generally. I saw some of this crap. I wanted to punch the motherf***ers lights out but Marina stopped me. A woman gets married and then quite naturally has a baby. In western society men mostly help. We will get up and walk that tike in the night and bottle feed it and change diapers, it is all part of loving your baby AND your wife. It is a 2 person job. Not necesarrily so with Russian men. Not all of course because I met wonderful Russian guys but the majority don't do shit. This colors a womans desire to have another baby with maybe you!!!!
They have a cut and dried point of view. As I was told it is actions that speak loudest. Marina has been to America but not my America. She didn't believe me that hotel rooms can only cost $50, she was convinced that they were $200 a night because that is what she exerienced. Therefore they are all $200 a night and I am mistaken. She thinks it is going to take 10 years before she will be allowed to work. Some asshole in Chicago told her this and she is convinced of it despite the fact that I have been through the immigration process personally and told her it was all cock.
This stubborness is really frustrating but it is part of the personality of Russia. I say Russia not Russian women because it is true. It is men and women. There is a ridiculous stubborn streak which will drive you mental. You only have to witness 2 cars meeting head on in a road blocked by snow to see the stupidity that can be displayed. It is ridiculous. Nobody backs down EVEN IF THEY ARE WRONG.
A woman from the cascus who has had a baby with no help from the prick she was married to then experiences a couple of keyboard romeos has a tendency to get a little defensive. Then you come along a genuine guy with nothing but honest intentions. Guess how you are treated? You have to be twice as understanding and patient. Piss poor software translators are the least if your worries.
So why bother?
They are far more beautiful and sensual than any woman you will meet in America. Bar none. Also just because there is caution it does not mean they do not want you or care about you deeply. If you stick it out and play through you will get the most loving , loyal, beautiful, supportive woman that can possibly be imagined. I know I have seen this close up.
Toad did things in a different way to Freebird. I respect both. I tend to lean towards Toads method but both are good. Toad was still lucky though, he bypassed any amount of problems by being picky. Plus when he got there it went smoothly, he could have had surprises like me.
But you know what? If something is worth having it is worth fighting for. Personally I see this as the beginning not the end. I am excited about going back in summer, eating shashlik, swimming in the lake and deepening this relationship. It is worth it. Piss or get off the pot I say. :))))))
This has been a very long post and it spins off in all kinds of directions. If anyone wants me to explain something I have said just ask and I will expand.
All the best
A couple more things before I go back to work.
If you don't have a sense of humor, a big one, get one mail order if necessary.
Toad, tell them about the chocolates on the plane and the laugh we had with the air crew.
Nothing will help you more than a good laugh. These women have a great sense of humor and the Russians have a tremendously dark sense of humor. Jokes about doctors and funerals go over big. They also know how to poke fun at themselves big time. You should do the same. I am English and the butt of everybodies jokes and I choose to laugh with them not be offended, this scores tremendous points. Also forget the American flag waving shit, you know the "America #1" crowd. This does not win points. I am proud to be an American but I kept it to myself. The bulk of people I met are not at all impressed by America and Bush seems to be roundly thought of as an posturing idiot. Best to stay away from that stuff and if somebody says something just swallow it. You are in their country after all is said and done.
That's it I'm off
I'm pretty sure the 1.5 year I spent writing, talking and chatting with Lena gave us the advantage of smoothing out some of the bumpy surprises that could have jolted either of us if we had met quickly or even within a few months.
Being overall anal retentive picky with things I have already listed was nothing more than finding the most effective and expedient solution to a potential or real problem I saw other men having to deal with early in the process. That's all.
I'm not naturally anal retentive and I often wondered if all the limitations I molded into my search were not working against me, instead.
Keep in mind also that Lena was one of the first women I ever contacted from FSU via the internet. It did take me a while to buy into her reasons for being interested in men 20 years her senior.
The sense of humor Izi refers to needs to be present when you're dealing with these kind of situation, even if they mean you have to endure doctor Ivana, the Terrible coming at you with a horse size syringe to do "medieval ass" things to you.
The Lufthansa crew of the Frankurt-Ekaterinburg flight will never forget hoe much fun they had at our expense. Joking, flirting, pouring us Argentinian and Chilean wine and talking about the California and Florida sunshine somehow the conversation moved to the only better place for wheather in the US...Hawaii, of course. That's when I pulled out a box of hawaiian chocolate covered macadamia nuts to for the crew to share whenever they daydreamed of tropical flight routes.
Just when I started to feel good about having gotten rid of some of the extra gifts I'd brought here comes one of the crew jsut before landing with two bottles of fine fine fine southamerican wine courtesy of the captain for bringing a little bit of Hawaii paradise to the Siberia flight.
They did come in handy during the Sunday dinner at Lena's mother's home and 8 march because the champagne I oredered mistakengly went to her mother's.
Great post. You know what you are doing, and more importantly what is required and needs to be taken into consideration. I can tell this, by your thoughts etc
Interesting about your mention of "Where they from" criterion. I can understand why this would be an important thing to take into consideration.
Stubborn !!! Yea definably witnessed that. Also seen a road accident (very minor one) It was hilarious, neither would back down.
Something I witnessed on many occasions, was their sense of direction. Bloody terrible.
How have you and othesr found their navigation ability while walking about or finding a specific spot ??
LOL Max...great point!!
Lena does not always know where she's going or where everything is but she's the most relentless walker and does not hesitate asking for directions whenever needed.
The first few days it was a hhhuuuuuuggggeee trial for me not knowing where anything was or how to get back on my own should I develop sleep-walking habits. By the time we went to Tobolsk and Ekaterinburg afterwards, I made sure to buy street maps to get my bearings.
It completely freaked her out when I told her we were going in the wrong direction a couple of times in E-burg while we were trying to find the mexican restaurant Conquista.
She didn't know that growing up in Argentina I used to chart the street maps in Buenos Aires and other large cities.
Give me a street map and enough light to read it and I'll never get lost anywhere.
Have you ever noticed that women will talk about the kind of man that they want, and end up with someone completely different? It happens all of the time. What women say they want and what they actually respond to are often totally different. Women can't tell you what they want in a man, they can only tell you what they think they want in a man. There is a big difference.
The bottom line is that women love men who are generative and creative. If they have to tell you how to get them, what to be like, and how to behave every step of the way, they aren't going to be turned on by you. They also aren't attracted to supplicants, begging for the easy keys to melt their heart. It's your independent nature that gets them going, not your dependency on being told how to act.
Besides, some of the traits that women complain about most in men have in them the seeds of what women find most attractive about men. In the film The Full Monty, for example, a bunch of out-of-work male steelworkers decide that they will make money by putting on a strip show for all the local women. The plan has trouble written all over it - none of these guys is particularly great-looking. But it speaks to a trait that women find both aggravating and attractive: Men are troublemakers.
We take on silly projects, push them to their limits, and even sometimes make them work. This quality is part of the creativity that women desire so much in men. So if you count on women to tell you what they want and how to behave in order to get them, you short circuit this wild nature that women love so much. Don't fall into that trap.
You outline an interesting problem and if you come up with a solution you will get a Nobel prize I think.
I am going to give away a little more personal stuff here to help illustrate. Marina is from the Cascus, they do things differently there. When she was 18 some asshole from a neighbouring village decided he wanted her. Just like a pony of another cow. So he had a couple of guys kidnap her. This is common practice. The implication is that she is now deflowered and brings dishonor to the family unless she marries the asshole. The father is quite within his rights to kill her if she does not. The law says one thing local custom says something else and consequently fathers really do take their daughters out and shoot them in the hills. Marina was caught in this situation. The guy told her that he would tell her father that he had raped her and she would be forced to marry him. She is tough though, she got a knife and threatened to kill him and then figure out how she would handle daddy later.
The asshole let her go because he could see that if he came near he would regret it.
This is only one thing I am mentioning here. Now let's approach N()R's point. She is a woman with a passionate woman's needs, she is no different than any other woman and wants security, love, tenderness and family. Unfortunately, the past has caused a toughness and a distrust that is hard to deal with. It doesn't mean that there is no interest just that there is a barrier that must be overcome with kindness and compassion.
This is N()R's point. It is necesary to see through the outside to the inside and determine what this or any other woman really wants. The ideal little Stepford wife is rarely going to be out there. It is always going to be something like Marina's situation. It might take a while to show up but there will be something.
I think that many of the FSU women have been through tough experiences especially the ones who have been married and have a child. I am sick to death of listening to stupid western women who complain about their evil ex husbands. They have had a cake walk compared to many of these eastern women.
Therefore I think that it takes great gobs of understanding and love even if it is not spoken to win the hearts of these women. In Marina's case it is written all over her that she wants to love and especially be loved. She just can't blurt it out because of the past and the fear of being hurt. This is where the genuiness comes in because you know that once the trust is totally released you have a WOMAN for life. A 100% commitment that would be a foreign concept to a western woman. From what I can make out the previous American boyfriend wanted a sort of Russian trophy.
"Hey boys look at this drop dead gorgeous woman I found in Russia."
The husband was a cold fish who only cared about himself.
The previous relationships were all variations on these themes. I think that beauty can be a curse and can certainly frighten away real normal ordinary guys like myself.
I like what N()R said about supplicants also. I don't think they want someone who is going to grovel at their feet. I am trying to make it clear that although I am in this thing that I will bale if there is no future there or I don't perceive one. This takes care of the stray dog syndrome. I will jump in a heartbeat if I feel I am wrong. Plenty of fish as they say. However I like a challenge.
I am just praying to god that if this works out I don't have to give her father 20 goats or something. Lufthansa thought the chocolates were cool but there is no way they are going to go for the goats on the plane.
IZI... Please hand me the Nobel Prize 2005 for understanding womens lust...
What you explain above is a well known tradition in the middle east, and unfortunately also obviously in some parts of FSU. Untill your post I did nok know this tradition also were present in FSU. It is terrible, they call it "honor-murder", and kill their own children.. Sick world!!!
Now to the answer for the Nobel Prize :)))))
The belief that being nice will get you a woman is one of the worst ideas promoted over the past years. Women want to be seduced and romanced.
Do you really think they are looking for "Mr.niceguy"?
I am sorry to tell you, they don't...
Don't listen to the SNAGS!! (Sensitive New Age Guy's.. lol)
Most men think they if they like a woman, and she says that you are "sweet," "interesting," or "a wonderful friend," that you are moving the relationship towards romance and sex. This is dead wrong. Women will either put you into the category of "friend" or "lover," but not both. When you are "nice" only a woman will likely put you into the category of friend, but not lover. If you don't believe this, just look around at all the jerks who have sex with hot women. Women certainly are not having sex with these guys because they are intellectually stimulating. No, these women are hot and heavy because these men are exciting, romantic, fun, and even a bit dangerous.
The solution? Don't give up being interesting and nice (that too would be a fatal error), just bring out other parts of your personality. Bring out the romantic and let that guide you into sweeping a woman off her feet. Put yourself in her position and figure out what would make her like you more than just a friend, turn her on and excite her. If you find yourself spending time discussing "fascinating" topics, but not romantic ones, change the subject back to her beauty. Memorize poetry and whisper passages into her ear.
Why do I find myself thinking... "This only goes for the western females???"
Understanding women's lust? Where did that come from?
The no more Mr Niceguy routine does not work all the time Nor. You have to stand up it is true but the bullying dominant male thing went out the window so many years ago it isn't even funny. That shit isn't even in my nature so I guess I am done for.
I was originally doing Toads method... It fell apoart the first day... You know what love at first sight is right? Well how about "shes a bitch at first sight!" Thats what I had... well it took a day.
I had to go to my back up plan after. I was picky.. not as picky as toad of course.... but I dont have as much in common with Jack Nicholson in the movie as good as it gets either ))))))
I will post my story here when it is truly apparent to me... So far nothing is the same! I met someone but no one I mentioned earlier and things just have a way of presenting themselves there. The phrase "when a russian woman really likes you, you will know it" keeps popping in my head every time I think of my girl. She left no doubt but maintained her dignity and class while letting me know she was mine )))