You are completely realistic. To think that the FSU women are all old fashioned and want to be the perfect housewife is total bullshit. I have been lucky to have been associated with Oksana in Kyiv who speaks perfect English.Communication is not our problem. She says exactly how she wants and expects it. After my third trip with her i have decided we are better off as friends. But we have become very close. She is not what i am looking for. She is as western as the word western can mean to us men. I told her we have a beautiful apartment at the Sherborne with a complete kitchen and instead of spending 50 to 100 dollars a day eating out ,there is a grocery store around the corner and we can make meals together which can be very fun activity to interact. Well , i did the cooking and dishes for six days and she never offered to help. She also does not keep her personal effects and clothes in order , wherever she drops them that is where they stay. She is a slob. She also expects to eat out everyday because her job dictates that and she also takes her son to McDonalds every chance she gets to get out of cooking. She has done this for three visits. She also told me she expects me to help her with all the housework after she waits for me to come home from work and to help her cook because that is what married couples do together. I have heard many young Ukrainian women use the word 50/50 when it comes to relationships and chores in discussions with them. And guess what , i feel the reason Oksana feels this way is because she spends almost every working day with American women coming over to adopt children. Everyday. They tell her how their husbands do every single thing for them and her mind is poisoned already. Oksana is 38 years old and she feels this way.She has absolutely no domestic skills whatsoever. Her priorities are working hard to survive and her hair, nails and make-up.She also suggested that i should trade in my two Mercedes for brand new ones The best home cooked meal i had over there was from her mother and she did not even help her. She told me it is a fantasy and a dream we western men have about finding a perfect young housewife. These women are more westernized than we think. But as you say Nor . they are a better quality women overall , but their minds i dont think want to be in servitude as a housepet.Men the younger generation of women in the FSU, most not all are getting more westernized everday if they are not there yet.I am still learning and having fun at it.
Part the deux
Now I want to mention my friend Robert. He moved in with me as a roommate back in November about the time I first started with Marina. He decided he would have a go. Not with Russian women but closer to home. He has ended up with a very nice American woman called Andrea. They are moving in together next week. Andrea and Robert are interesting for a couple of reasons. Firstly R is 53, married twice and looks like he has been pulled through a hedge backwards. He is a biker and does the whole scruffy leather, headscarf, beard, and raggedy hair thing. Appearances can be deceptive though because he has a heart of gold. He is dependably and trustworthy doesnít ever drink or smoke. He doesn't have any money though. At the moment he doesn't even have a job. Eating out for him is a couple of slices of pizza and a coke. When he meets women he goes exactly as he is and offers them coffee and pie. He is honest.
Andrea saw through the rough exterior, wasn't concerned that he was not Rockefeller and loves him for who he is and not what he hasn't got. They are going to be fine together both having had a couple of bad dry runs. It is a classic case of they don't have much but they do have each other. I admire them.
Marina is beautiful and 12 years my junior. Although she is in a different class than Andrea they agree on everything. P's attitude is what Marina despises about American women. She finds that whole thing laughable.
Yes she is younger, yes she is gorgeous, yes she is intelligent but she is not a whore. A whore is a woman who gives sex for rewards. Like almost every American woman with few exceptions that I have encountered. An American woman with Marina's attributes would be looking for those $8 glasses of wine and to be driven there in a Corvette.
This is why I look in Russia. Robert is lucky he has found a rare, rare lady. A genuine woman who has a heart and enough self respect to have dignity and integrity. She is from Minnesota or similar originally. I think that might have something to do with this. South Florida is awash with insincere bimbos who are constantly eyeing a manís worth, not his worth.
Sorry about your experience. Everything you say is true. They are catching up fast. However I still firmly believe that it is absolutely possible to find a domesticated woman from there who can also hold down a job.
Just like I do:))
And my ex wife did:))
And all my friends wives do:))
You hit a rock buddy. Next case I think. I am returning to Russia in July. If I experience anything similar as I did in March I will walk immediately. It is not a problem finding a better replacement. I am willing to give this a second shot, not a third. However many things have changed in my case and I think it is unlikely I will find the same person that I did in March. She has said as much. I also understand why this happened and what the cure was. In your case I think she is hopeless. I think she is making a very foolish mistake with you. You are a solid guy and have choices. She does not. She is getting older and it won't be too long before she is out for the count. Good luck amigo.
I really really really hope that just because it's working out for me and Lena, despite the age difference, men out there will not think the same luck is waiting for everyone.
If you're going to rob the crib like I've done, make sure at least that the baby has a little experience and welcomes being robbed by men your own age.
Do I have to repeat that???
Many times and for a long time, Lena had to hammer on my hard, and at times, empty cranium that she has always been attracted to older men. She makes no qualms about it, nothing wrong with it attitude and if that's what I like why in the world shouldn't I try to get it sort of thinking.
Some women like cue balls like Nor's, some like bikers with no jobs and a good heart. Some others are happy with a man with teeth and a 10" personality.
I do not mind one effing bit being the beneficiary of that attraction that sets the basic physical chemistry needed to bring two people together.
I've had plenty of very young women here, there and everywhere I've traveled to.
But this time is for keeps and still does not bother me one bit. I am confident about what and how it needs to be done to make it work.
But it does not stop there. That's just the beginning.
Just because she is a babe who outclasses every western woman I have ever met in my long and not so illustrous life did not mean I was going to compromise ANY of my picky requirements in choosing a woman with whom to build a future. NONE.
On the contrary, because she is so much younger than me, I morbidly added a few specially designed for her...;))...There was no way I'd have gone to Siberia in winter if her immediate family had not been able or willing to meet me. Enjoy my company and opened up to the fact we're being serious about what we're planning to do.
How many of you drool after a young woman and are actually scared shitless and embarrassed about meeting a lady's parents who are your own age or very close to it....maybe even younger?
Nor, Jmolv and others, (sometimes even Annika) hit the nail on the head when we talk about not relying on the issue country of your passport to guarantee a future with any one particular woman.
It is what you do, the decisions you make, the choices you take, the integrity of your way of thinking and the efforts you put forth that will earn you the respect, affection, loyalty and admiration of any FSU woman you want.
And if you manage to do earn the respect and support of her family at an early stage, you will have given yourself one gigantic gift for putting yourself out there on the 'rejection' line of
I am earning everything that Lena brings to the party and will have to continue to do so for the rest of my life if I expect her to keep it up.
Right now I'm just gloating in the 'glory' of knowing Lena's mother asks about me every time they talk. I'm in her thoughts in a positive way because I've earned it.
You have to have a clear concise mental vision of what you want your life to be in the future FIRST.
And if the western system wins and Lena becomes a western spoiled brat like Izzi's "P." I have the perfect antidote in Lena's mother, the best super ally any older man married to a much younger FSU woman could ever ask for...:)))
You sound a bit like you are giving up on something.
Im in the U.K.
I run my bussiness but it ain't by no means a gold mine but I know for a fact that I can support myself, my new Ukrainian Girl and her son if need be.
Love makes us men move our ass.
I am getting my girl here for a holiday, she has already told me that she doesn't want to be taken places all the time, dinner and such things. She just wants to live a normal life with me while she is here, Her words exactly.
Dont worry about money, you'll have an early stroke mate.
Well my wife is also not into cooking, so maybe its not so unusual in FSU like Annika says, I was a chef in an earlier life so maybe thats got something to do with it.
What I have to say in my wife's defence is she helps with the cooking and preparing, won't let me touch the washing up, ironing or housework so there isn't room for me to criticise her in any way.
I've had to learn some other compromises like, I don't get to decide what I wear when I go out, she has strong opinions for quite a few things, but its a tiny price to pay in exchange for the complete culture change she has gone through.
At least your wife makes an effort to help out. Also what helps make them the greatest is that they are different women of a different culture and it is a challenge. It is new and it is different from what we have come to dislike in the west. It keeps the mind curious and entertained so it keeps you from going flat. I can find Oksana`s attitude here in my hometown.
- I am not giving up by any means. I think you have misunderstood me if that is your impression (English is not my native language, and sometimes it is not perfect, unfortunately).
- I am not talking about Toad's Lena, or izi's Marina, or.... someones someone... I am just telling you that things are not always what it seem to be, and that you have to know these things. Don't build everything around a castle built of air...
- I am not pointing my finger to those of you with a normal or better income, I am pointing my finger to those without a normal income, without a real life, people that lives an extra life on internet. May be already married, and just chat with these FSU beauties from work or something else. Or may be someone not serious, just looking for some compliments, a internet flirt or something else... I am just telling you to be NICE to these women and not use them and leave them crying!
- I am not telling you it cannot work with a bigger age-gap than 10 years, I only tell you your chances to succeed are better if there is a smaller age-gap! What I am telling you what so ever is that you are STUPID if you are 55 yo and believe the 21 yo beauty is in love with you after some sweet mails and a brief meeting! - Or want you sexually...
- I am not telling you these women like being home all the time, in a leash between the kitchen and the bedroom, or do housekeeping, making dinner for you every day and more to it.. Because that is not true!!!! They are different human beings just like all of us are, some like to live that way, some like another way of life. The important thing here is to know your woman and also traditions well (study), and not expect her to do all of these things, because you will might be in for a surprise. If you are looking for a housekeeper, go rent someone!
- I am not telling you these women won't do housekeeping, run from the kitchen to the bedroom, many of them will of course, some with pleasure.
- I am not saying this is only a matter of money, of course some of us take the princess out to the restaurants, spend money in all directions, that is not at all the issue here! The issue is that if you cannot afford bringing her to your country, and provide her the first year or so, stop breaking hearts in FSU, because that is the result of it. These women have dreams and hopes for the future, and they have no other choise than to completely trust you, don't hurt her.. That is my message!
- I am not telling you it is not ok to have dreams, I am begging you to have realistic dreams! That will make both hers and your life much easier! If your business was built on unrealistic goals, it would only end in a big dissapointment, but if you have a business plan, and work for it to happen, well, then you would tell your friends that your business was doing great - even if the millions still haven't been close to your account. Because you have realistic expectations, and you have a goal, you will work towards it bit by bit. It is the same with these women. Look at Toad, he spent a very long, a very result-oriented search for the right one. He is in a situation where he can afford seeing her, and he can afford to provide her. I call that realistic expectations. The only thing for him to find out is how things will be after a year or two. This we never know without trying. In his case it is the age gap, but as I said above that can of course work just fine in some cases, I just said the chance of being successful was bigger with a smaller gap.
You mentioned money, that is not a problem for me, I am no millionaire, but I do good enough. I just want to open some eyes, because we all must understand all of the men searching and chatting with these women are not serious enough, or have the knowledge about what it takes to bring one of these women back home... -and they have to understand this is not a pet...
But giving up??? No chance.. I know what I want when I see it! -I LOVE THESE WOMEN!!!
It is ok. I agree with you anyway. For me this is a stretch I have said this before. However so long as the lady in question understands this and is in this for love not money (as in my case) then fine. Anybody with me will not be rich but they will have fun and someone that they can rely on when the chips are down. I myself have been laying plans to support Marina for the 1st year. It seems the right thing to do. I wish it was more but it is the best I can do. After that we will plough forward. As time goes by it will get better. Something that draws people together is a common goal. If that goal is a trip to the Aztec pyramids in Mexico or a new car it is the same thing. Having someone that is willing to participate in this joint struggle with eyes wide open is the trick. In America they don't want that, they want a gift as does P. Typical.
I believe that the women in Russia etc are far more inclined to be team players and enter into this situation totally aware of what they are doing and ready for the fight. The problem is that in their countries they can't find a man who is willing to commit and do his best without running away at the first sign of trouble either into a bottle or with a woman with nicer legs and bigger tits.
The age gap is an obvious thing. It seems that women in FSU are far less concerned about this than their western counterparts. At least that is what they say!! Not sure if it is true though. It was an issue with Marina. This I couldn't understand at all as her previous 'friend' was 26 years older! I am only 12. An explanation about insurances put this to rights. Still seemed weird. I call this womens logic and it passes beyond any country's borders. This is the same logic at work that deduces that if you mention that her hair looks nice that you will be having fish for dinner. Don't ask me it just works that way. It is a law that God made - womens logic. Anyone who has been married knows this. :)))
Izi hit on a point that also gives reason for why men look FSU. A lady here or Auzzi or America that is younger and very attractive with class and style and that allegiance that we all adore, we haven't got a shit show in hell of having a crack at them. We would not get near 1st base let alone past it. This is where it is different, as I said before the pool of available stock is huge in FSU. This calibre of women, is not accessible to 99% of us in the west.
I am a little amazed at some of you chaps regarding your persistence to continue with a lady that has, may I say "Bad Western Traits" If a lady showed any sloppy of selfish tendencies, she gets the eject button pronto. Harsh, maybe. But I can not see any point and going to all the hassle (and it isnít an easy task) and cost to win the heart of a lady that does not have at least 90% of my wants and likes. They are there, lots of them. Terrific women with sound and reliable personalities. Loving and caring. Want a man that is safe and sound with good basic family principles.
Toad, I think you are an exception to the norm, and good on you. You did your homework (for a long time) and all has proved good. I also think all ladies are different. I imagine your Lena is very mature for her 27 years. I met a lady in SPB. Turned out she was 22, I couldnít believe it, felt bloody guilty, she was the same age as my daughter. I thought she was 30, she had a very mature head on her shoulders.
Izi, remember my 1st post to you. I said you reminded me of myself, regarding my 1st FSU experience ?? I feel this similarity is continuing down the same path. I hope I am wrong and good luck. I also had to return, even though, it only was to confirm what I already knew, I am a slow learner but my 1st gut feelings are always bloody right, dam it !!!! What the hell, it only cost my 10K to once again confirm it. !!!!
When I say Lena outclasses any and every woman I know I mean she is more educated, more attractive, has better manners, has more infinitely much more travel experience than most western women, READS BOOKS, was raised to be proud of her housekeeping and cooking skills and above all has the same basic family vision for her future as I do for mine.
In western years she wouldbe considered and 'elder'.
My problem is rather opposite of others. I told Jenia that she would not have to work. I am now realizing how much more expensive a family of three (maybe four) is compared to just myself. She WANTS to be a housewife, period. I have tried to change her mind but it isn't working. (and neither is she) Only if it comes down to being an emergency will she work. She wants another child and to spend time with her 7 yr. old son that has never been able to see his mother during the week because she works 13 hr days. I will stick to my promise of letting her be a loving housewife. It doesn't sound that bad actually, but I hate to see all those good educational skills go to waste. She could very easily make twice as much money as me and then I could go fishing and hit the riverboat casinos on a regular basis. :o)
Now you are actually pointing your finger to what I am saying.. It is quite expensive to provide a family of 3 to 4 people.. I have no problem to understand she wants to be with the kid, after all that is what really matters. It is very important to have time with them. But what is the result? Well, may be not in your case Dale, but in many it would have been to work some extra. Then we are back to the question about freedom. Someone here stated earlier in this thread that the freedom in USA was marvelous, I am sure it is -I really don't doubt that. But his point was that it was freedom because you could have several jobs and work all the time... Is that freedom??? Freedom for me is to have time with friends and family, and still have enough money to manage life. That is what I call freedom. How the hell is a relationship going to work anyway if you never have time for pleasure together with your princess?
I really like the idea about fishing and riverboat casino.. LOL.. may be I can bring my future wife there as well, they can work, and the rest of us can live in Toads camping-trailer and do as much fishing as we wish to.. :))
Good posts as always NOR.
In Izis posts I really understand what kind of woman Marina is, real person. Toads Lena is some kind of robot?? Does she have any negative sides? I hope we dont read here after half a year your temperament posts what are totally opposite???
Lena's biggest shortcoming is her impatience.
She is not perfect, and neither am I.
But when you put us together, we make one very good team.
By the time she finally gets here it will have been over two years of knowing each other.
Her willingness to stick to it is another subtle reminder that she finds me worthy of the wait.
I know exactly what you hope for us six months from now, Annika....so drop the charade.
Even if all falls apart for whatever unforseen reason it will not be a deterrent to me.
I found one great woman on my own this time...I can do it again if need be.
Thank you. Marina is a real person. Very, very human. She has fears and insecurities. She has a child whose welfare is her sole responsibilty. She wants to be sure she isn't going to make a mistake. It is a big jump. At the same time she wants romance and above all love exactly the same as everyone else. Things have changed for us in the last 2 weeks. A good solid practicality has entered the fray. I am glad about this and she is too. I tried to cover this while I was there but I didn't get through. Too much going on I suppose.
Maxi is concerned that I am repeating his mistake. Maybe he is right. I don't know. I am willing to risk a couple of thousand dollars to find out. This is all far more of a learning experience than I thought when I first began all this last year. I had a lot of stupid notions encouraged by the various dating sites. It has taken this forum, a trip to Russia, hundreds of emails and phone calls and most of all Marina herself to educate me.
Toad's posts about hedonism were important. Also the thing about male & female energy. Bagira's view of bettering herself through marriage was very valid. I have learned from all this and feel that coupled with a genuine heart my second trip will be great. Much better than the first.
Nobody is perfect. Russian women are not perfect either. Marina snores like a drain. I read every bloody thing when I visit a museum, infuriating with anybody foolish enough to accompany me. FSU women are built up to be some kind of fantasy women by AFA and Elena's Models and everyone else. It ain't so. They are different from American women in many respects but they are still women. The worst thing is going into this with a fantasy that if you are hopeless in America out there they will be falling over themselves to molest your short, fat, hairy little body. It isn't true. There is a limit.
Likewise with the age thing. Toad has been fortunate and I wish him well. What the future will bring nobody knows. There are just too many success stories of men with much youger women to discount this situation. I personally have met Toad and Lena, if you did not know what the situation was you would be guessing trust me. IT WORKS.
My situation with Marina is probably far more like the norm. 2 very human people. Misunderstandings, language and cultural differences. Sparring, feeling each other out. Learning about each other - the hard way. By email and phone call. You cannot get to know someone in 2 weeks! That is insane. It is no different than dating at home in some ways and in others completely different. The whole thing has an accelerated feel to it. I am not saying that is a bad thing just the gut reaction I have.
But you know what? I have a good gut feeling about this. Definitely worth a second visit and if Maxi is right I will be the first to stand up and admit it. However I think it is damn well worth all the effort. I could never, not in a million years find a woman in Marina's class in the USA interested in me the way she is. American women have a totally different agenda. I will stick with what I am doing. 'nuf said I'll shut up.
I meant, I feel you are following my pattern. You are a deep person, I can see this and you will not quit or give up unless you are 100% that it will not work. Good on you, and I truly hope it works out for you both, and you will not know unless you give it another chance.
I donít think this is classed as a mistake, possibly loosing some time, but this is compensated with by experience learned.
EBurg ladies according to a chap I met in SPB, who now works in EBurg, said the ladies love foreigners. So perhaps another wouldn't be to hard to initiate once there if things turn upside down.
Anyway, what the hell, its only money and we only live once !!!!!!
Yes Maxi. You are correct that is how I feel also. If things don't work out I will leave Marina's place, go to Alexander Korjev and he will set me up with somewhere to live and all the women I can handle. He specialises in women from Eburg nowhere else. It will be easy. He has already welcomed me and said I can spend as much time in the office as I want. Don't think it will be necesary though things are going very well. We are having trouble waiting until July 2. Both a little impatient right now. :)) Looking forward to seeing lots of mutual friends and eating shashlik by the lake in summer. Going to try some Russian mushrooms too. I will do the vodka thing also but this time in the lying down position, less distance to fall :)))
You will see everything quite different in their summer, when I returned it was their summer, what a different feel. Just watch out you donít fall over your tongue when walking the streets. There summer dress code will floor Ya !!
Yea, I know the feeling of "can't wait" I am going through hell at moment waiting also, will be in heaven hopefully 2 June @ Kiev.
You sound happy and positive and this is good for all. And I pray those arenít Magic Mushrooms you talking about !!!!
izi, i am sorry as i have not kept up 100% with your story. To my undersatdning you were not happy with you first trip, with marina I mean. I understand you are going to meet her again as you have fis things in some why. My x wife also told me that she was sory for her sharttiute as she worded it. She said she loved me and blamed her current circumstances for her bad attitude. I gfell for it. She managed to be nice for the next trip but now I know that my first impression was true. Thye say first impression last and maybe they should. My ex was from Ekaterianburg. Thats where yiou went yes? I know you are being carful but do not forget this first impression. No matter her reasons for her ways, it was still her. she is not a different person. Please do not take offence