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	Create New Topic   My Posts   My forum buddies   Invite friends   Private messages Russian brides > Main Forum > Victory Day Author Post scottlf Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 5/9/2005 10:19:58 AM   mm, web error. This is about "Victory Day" in Russia/Ukraine, so forgive the lack of a subject line. Today (to my knowledge) is Victory Day in Russia and Ukraine. I hope good memories exists for those of you with family members in that war. However, I did see the following article today, and I think it worth posting. http://www.torontosun.com/News/Columnists/Margolis_Eric/2005/0 5/08/1030757-sun.html PRESIDENT GEORGE W. Bush is due to attend ceremonies in Moscow tomorrow commemorating the 60th anniversary of the Soviet Union's victory over Germany in 1945. It is both right and wrong that he be there. Right, because many North Americans and British mistakenly believe their nations alone defeated National Socialist Germany. In fact, Stalin's Soviet Union, not the western democracies, played the decisive role in defeating Adolf Hitler and his European allies. While rightly honouring our own heroic veterans, it's time we also recognize and pay homage to Russia's dauntless courage, endurance and suffering. - The Soviet Union inflicted 75% of all World War II German casualties in titanic battles involving millions of men. Soviet forces killed 3 million German troops, and lost 11.3 million, with 18.3 million wounded. Twenty million Russian civilians died. Britain lost 340,000 men, Canada 43,000, and the U.S. about 150,000 in the European Theater. The $11 billion of U.S. military aid to the U.S.S.R. helped Stalin, but was not decisive. - When Allied forces landed at Normandy, the Wehrmacht's "guts had been ripped out by the Soviets," said Winston Churchill. Had the Allies met 1940's strength and quality German troops, with an intact Luftwaffe, they would have been driven into the English Channel. However battered, the Wehrmacht fought ferociously from 1944 to '45, recalling Churchill's dictum, "You will never know war until you fight Germans." - The Soviet defeat of Japan's forces in Manchuria has been ignored. In a brilliant, blitzkrieg campaign along a 3,000-km front on Aug. 9, 1945, Soviet Far Eastern armies crushed Japan's weakened 710,000-man Kwantung Army, killing 80,000 and capturing 594,000. So it's right to honour Russia's valiant soldiers. But it's also wrong to keep on ignoring the Soviet Union's monstrous crimes or the Allies' alliance with the tyrant who committed them. Nazi concentration camps like Buchenwald and Auschwitz are household names. But who recalls even more murderously prolific Soviet death camps like Kolyma, Vorkuta and Magadan? Stalin told Churchill he had killed 10 million farmers in the early 1930s, and hailed the butcher of 6 million Ukrainians, Commissar Lazar Kaganovich, as "our Himmler." The best current estimate of Stalin's victims is 20 million murdered before WWII, and 10 million from 1941 to '53, a total "democide" of 30 million. Hitler's toll was around 12 million after 1941. Nor did German aggression alone begin the war in Europe. German-Soviet aggression did. We forget Hitler and Stalin jointly invaded, then partitioned Poland under the notorious Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, that Moscow has never renounced. Seven million Poles died, half of them were Jews. The U.S.S.R. then went on to invade Finland, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. In 1939, Hitler, whose major crimes still lay ahead of him, was seen by many Europeans as a hero who had pulled Germany out of economic collapse, restored national dignity and provided the main bulwark against the very real threat of communist mass murder engulfing western Europe. Yet Britain and the U.S. chose to become war partners with Stalin, by then history's worst mass killer. Churchill and particularly Franklin Roosevelt must share indirect guilt for Stalin's crimes, just as they would had they joined Hitler. This aspect of the war remains taboo. At Yalta, the left-leaning Roosevelt, besotted by "Uncle Joe" Stalin's power, delivered half of Europe to communist rule, replacing a greater tyranny for a lesser one. What should the Allies have done? In 1939, the 20th-century's leading military thinker, Maj.-Gen. J.F.C Fuller, urged Britain not to go to war over Poland, but await the inevitable war between Germany and the U.S.S.R. that would destroy them both, then liberate Europe. Otherwise, he warned, Stalin would emerge the victor. Hitler was declared "the supreme evil" and ideological war declared. Fuller was pilloried and ignored. It's time Canada, the U.S. and Britain face their culpability in abetting Stalin. They should demand Russia come clean over Stalin's crimes and prosecute Soviet officials and police who are still alive. Bush at least took a first step by rebuking the Kremlin for its invasion of the Baltic states. Continuing to beat the drums about Nazi crimes, however horrible, while ignoring egregious communist crimes is profoundly dishonest. Too much lingering wartime propaganda still clouds our historical memory. Some other forgotten points: - Germany's September 1939 invasion of Poland did not begin WWII. It began five months earlier when Fascist Italy invaded little Albania. Or arguably in 1936 when Japan invaded China. - In the 1920s, Churchill authorized using poison gas against rebellious Kurdish tribesmen in Iraq and on India's northwest frontier. In the '30s, Italy used poison gas and concentration camps to break resistance in Libya. - As German generals Rommel and Guderian were smashing across the Meuse on May 12-15, 1940, in the epic Battle of France, Hitler remarked that his generals were more eager to march on Berlin than Paris. The failure by Britain and the U.S. to support anti-Nazi Germans in the late 1930s and again in 1944 proved a tragic mistake. - WWII was not a simple conflict between democracy and tyranny, as we are misinformed, but a scottlf Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 5/9/2005 10:20:28 AM   clash between imperial powers, ideology and economic systems. Italy's fascism, and Germany's National Socialism, threatened not only Europe but Britain's and America's capitalist system and money-lending financial elites. In 1939, the British Empire still ruled swathes of Asia and Africa. Germany, Italy and Japan went to war against the British, French, Dutch, Belgian colonial empires and the U.S. Pacific Imperium. - No sooner were the Netherlands liberated from German occupation by Canada in 1945 than Dutch troops were sent to re-occupy the former Dutch colony, Indonesia, which had proclaimed independence. Dutch and British colonial forces massacred tens of thousands of Indonesians from 1945 to '49, acting with far more brutality than German troops did in Holland. - At war's end, 15 million ethnic Germans were driven from ancestral homes across Eastern Europe. Two to 3 million Germans were killed. Two million German women were raped by the Red Army. nasfan6 Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 5/9/2005 8:53:56 PM   Excellent Article Scott. Thanks! Some people just don't get the message of the evils of the Stalin communist empire. An excellent book to further the foundations of the money trail and WWII is a book called the Creature of Jekyll Island. Also it proves the difference between a Democracy and a Constitutional republic we enjoy. Hammer away at the good ol USA but a Hitler could never come to power in the US. I am going to Yalta in July, and the Tatars are rasing hell about a statue of Churchill,Roosevelt and Stalin, of the three only one true statesman in Churchill, Roosevelt was a sellout and Stalin Made Hitler look like a choirboy when it came to murder. Though the total credit cannot all go to the Soviets, a major fighting Machine the Bell AirCobra with it's tank busting abilities helped the soviets neutralize a far superior armor group than the soviets had. As for Manchuria, the US,British and Australian Armies had hammered the piss out of Japan, and by the time Manchuria was invaded Japan was standing on it's last leg. I will agree with one point of the article, The former Communists who aided in the slaughter, of Ukrainians,Russians, Armenians and Georgians should be brought to trail as past Nazi murders were. I will Salute men like General Kalishinkov, who saw in the battles of Kursk and others that soviet small arms where inferior to the Nazi's and devised weapons to save his countrymen. jmoluv Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 5/9/2005 9:45:38 PM   Mike, Oksana surprised the shit out of me when we were in that WW TWO museum a little past the Sherborne in that military park and she come out and said that she can disassemble and reassemble a Kalishnikov assault rifle. I was stunned . She said it was part of the cirriculum that all girls in her class had to learn to stop in case her country was invaded by , well you know who. Those venture capitalist. LOL scottlf Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 5/9/2005 9:51:24 PM   LMFAO! Well, we don't have to worry about that here. After all, only police should need to know how to safely handle weapons. Us obedient citizens should just do as we are told. :-) nasfan6 Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 5/9/2005 10:11:58 PM   Jeff Larissa told me the same thing. She still remembers how to assemble,disassemble and shoot an ak-47. I will now have to hide my SKS if she ever gets pissed at me LOL!Amazing the fear they were taught about us. Scott you're sounding like a lib from Texas!!!LOL you mean ya'll don't own firearms in Texas. I can understand that, since our Yale Cowboy was once your govenor! Sorry I will always own firearms and will fight to keep my permit to carry a concealed weapon. If your state has a permit to carry, get it now before the libs try to take it from you. jmoluv Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 5/9/2005 10:22:33 PM   When i told her i spent a good deal of my youth in Boy Scouts , She identified that as a paramilitary outfit very similar to the Hitler Youth. I was in tears from laughing. scottlf Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 5/9/2005 10:48:45 PM   Sad to say, Mike, but I haven't had a rifle since I left home. To be honest, I don't think I should have to have a permit to have a concealed weapon, but that's just me. Glad you took my post in jest, as it was intended. I imagine you know I am a strong supporter of the 2nd Amendment. JMO, the history of the Boy Scouts is interesting. It actually has a military history behind it's founding. N()R Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 5/10/2005 2:51:12 AM   There are different ways to read history. You can read it straight out of a book or article, or you can understand the history when you read it. To understand history you need to go further back, maybe hundreds of years. History is quite interesting I think, but you need to read books, lots of books to get a clear picture. Encyclopedias have different ways to tell the "truth". In one encyclopedia I read Stalin was a great leader, in another book he was a dictator and a murderer... If you read about Bush in an middle-east encyclopedia I am shure he will be reffered as a terrorist, in US a hero... The history is not the same all over the world... This is interesting: (quote)*German-Soviet aggression did. We forget Hitler and Stalin jointly invaded, then partitioned Poland under the notorious Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, that Moscow has never renounced. Seven million Poles died, half of them were Jews. The U.S.S.R. then went on to invade Finland, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania** Why did this happen? Stalin needed these countries as a "buffer-zone". If he could move the borders further west the possibilities to stop invaders before they reach the "real" Soviet would be improved. This way they moved the war away from Soviet, and into these countries to ease the pressure on the "real" Soviet. Less casualties for Soviet since other countries took the punch... The Soviet lost Poland under the civil wars in 1920, this was their chance to get it back to Soviet hands. They did this right after Hitlers regime ended. This was accepted by western countries. felicedate Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 5/10/2005 5:55:02 AM   NOR. Both books you have read are right. Stalin was the greatest leader of all the times who managed to build the strongest country with the most powerful army and great tecnology while several years ago it was just a big agricultural country lets say like Mongolia. Still Stalin was the most bloody murderer at his time. Just in one 1937 his personal signature was under 40.000 death sentenses(out of 1.300.000 total for that year). He was a sick man and one only his name recalls lakes of blood. NKVD(future KGB) killed thousands of people in my city. Yet the most terrible slaughters were made by nazi when they killed around 40000 of jews here in 3 days. if not Hitler woulkd invade Europe, Stalin had a plan to do the same in a year. And I think in this case it would not finish like it finished in 1945. By the way from the notorious trinity stalin-Rosevelt-Churchil only Rosevelt can be honoured. Churchil had the biggest dictator in himself and only the big boys playing prevented him from seizing a good peace of cake on the map of Europe. Churchil was all the time preparing for the war with SU considered Russians his main enemies. And by the way nobody now remembers about the repressions he ordered to make in 1939. Thanks he was wise enough not to kill too many but thousands of people were exiled to Canada. We don't understand much right now. It was acruel world and it really needed Dictators to rule it. Those who were not dictators surrendered in a week after German's invasion. Stron democracy in UK let people get rid of their dictator right after the war, Rosevelt died himself in 1945 if I am not mistaken and USSR was unlucky to have the tyran until 1953. It is not right to blame any country in that situation for trying to put their influence on other weaker countries. All the strong countries did. Yes, Soviet troops brought comunist governments to 13 European countries like Hungary, Poland, Lithuania and so on. Sorry, Berlin was devided into 3 occupation parts. Churchil an Rosevelt finally agreed for the slaughter in Normandy just because they knew that if they don't do this, Stalin's armies will do this themselves easily and drive through all the Europe. If they would come to the Atlantics now it would be a completely different world. And for the influene in the world... In the last 2 years another small dictator president Bush brought "democratic governments" to 3 or 4 countries using the same methods as Stalin was using to bring "comunist governments". However you would call it the essense stays the same... Worldtraveller Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 5/10/2005 6:30:45 AM   Scott, me being a citizen of Germany I have to thank you for publishing this article here. Very seldom I read such a neutral and detailled report about WWII. During the last two days I had some controversies with some friends of Eastern Europe regarding the celebration in Moscow. For me it is not to understand, why 60 years after finishing WWII still any military victory games have to take part. What shocked me is the fact, that again more and more portraits of Stalin are a part of the victory celebration. In fact: there is not even one monument in whole today Russia, which remembers on the victims of Stalinīs cruelties. For me it is not to understand, why the million of relatives of Stalinīs victims do not ask for it....... The speach of Putin did not dedicate with any simple sentence the things, which Stalinīs troops did in Baltic states. The Sowjets took those small three countries and not any western government was ready to loose a word of critic about it 60 years ago. Still Putin refuses to say Sorry to the Baltics, what happened in that time. What is still surprising me is the sad fact, that from time to time i meet a kind of admiring and fascinating in Eastern Europe about Hitler. And several times in Moldova I heard from native moldovans (who lost tenthousands of inhabitants being transportet to Siberia on Stalinīs order), that it would have been better, if Hitler had won the war.... It was Stalin, who asked in the conference in Theheran the west allies to build up a second Front, means Normandy. In the first two years of war the west allies aid to Stalin was not only a big help, it was necessary to survive for him. Churchill hated and admired Stalin at the same time. In Yalta he was filled from Stalin whith the best Vodka and Cogncac he could find in USSR. Without having any right-wing-feeling I tend to say, that if Hitler would not have done the mistake to fight against the whole world (except Japan and parttime Italy), in a war only against Stalin he would have won. But the very best solution wold have been from the beginning, if both, Hitler and Stalin, never would have lived. WT scottlf Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 5/10/2005 8:20:13 AM   Hindsight is 20/20, but all the sides either made critical blunders, or the roll of the dice occured in their favor in some decisive battles. In some cases, I swear god must have been involved. For instance, the Battle of Midway. Our crushing victory in that battle was an incredible fluke. Hitler's biggest problem was that he often ignored the advice of his top generals. Dividing his forces in Russia was an early mistake. Refusing to allow his men to retreat was a second one. Some events were like fate as well. Had Schroedenger realized his physics were wrong about fission, Germany would have had an atomic bomb before they had lost the invasion. Stalin's biggest mistake was that not only did he not listen to his top generals, he had them all shot. Any one with excellent leadership and military skill was a threat to him. Regarding Estonia, just recently they put up a WWII memorial with Estonians in German uniforms. Yes, the Estonians fought against the Soviets when Stalin came back. They new their fate would be better under Hitler than under Stalin. That's chilling. Another mistake Hitler made was the Battle of Britian. To my knowledge, Hitler started to bomb civilian cities after an accidental fire bombing of a German city. Had Hitler continued to bomb strategic targets in England, supposedly England was roughly three weeks away from being forced to surrender. By the way, had Hitler or Stalin never existed, I'm sure someone else would have arisen in their place. There simpley was a power vacuum at the time in both places. felicedate Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 5/10/2005 9:35:58 AM   Worldtraveller. You are not right. there are memmorials to the victims of Stalin's repressions all over the FSU. Almost in every city you can find them. It is sad that they are not as popular and are situated not so convenient as the other memorials. Besides still in Russia there are hundreds of thousands fanatic people(mostly very old) who adore Stalin. You know he was like a god for his generation, people were dieing with his name on their lips(was it at concentration camps or at the war front line). When he died the whole nation mourned. Only a small part of intelligent people really understood what he was. Yes this creature shot most of the top army oficers just before the war. Rokosovski who was the second figure in this war after Jukov spent 4 years in prison. NKVD tormented him all the time, they broke several his bones, 9 teeth. He was firm enough not to sign the confession and this is why he was released and became the person who actually won this war. It was a cruel, terrible time. Traveller, I don't speak for "poor" Estonia with their SS regiments performing massive butchery among the peaceful citizens of all FSU countries including the Baltic countries. I speak for Belarus that was the first SU republic to meet Nazi troops. Here every 3d was killed by the Germans. They even didn't bother to spend bullets, they gathered populations of the whole village in a church or the biggest house of the village and burnt it. More than 5000 villages here vere destroyed in this particular way. By the way Scot, one part of that article is a complete bullshit. When the soviet army came to germany the first Stalin's order was that for raping and stealing from the peaceful Germans the punishment was death without tribunal. It didn't let the Russians perform much bad. One thing... The nazi didn't have such an order from Hitler. You can imagine what was happening here. One last thing. The Victory day here is the day not of SU ot Stalin's victory in WWII... It is in our mentality as the heroic victory of Russian PEOPLE over the Nazi invaders in GREAT PATRIOTIC WAR. Most people say that this war was won not due but despite of Stalin. scottlf Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 5/10/2005 11:35:51 AM   If such an order was made by Stalin, all historical records I am aware of show it was not enforced. jmoluv Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 5/10/2005 12:27:17 PM   Scott and Felice, On my last trip tp Kyiv beginning of April. Oksana took me to the ravine of Babi Yar . I am sure some of you have heard of it. This is where the SS took 30 thousand people all men ,women and children all rounded up from Kyiv and shot them and pushed them into the ravine . There is two memorials on the location but the ravine has been leveled. It was a very sad visit. But she said that the name Babi Yar became a phrase for every massacre after that particular massacre even though they popped up in different locations after. felicedate Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 5/10/2005 12:48:33 PM   Jmo. Yes I know about this place, in belarus there is one similar place Kuropaty where around 40000 were killed by NKVD. REally such places are in each city, one has just to be interested in them. You know around a year ago by some strange coinsidence we were organizing a trip to Belarus for a guy who was in correspondence with one of our girls. In our correspondence he told that he decends from Belarus, actually his grand father went to the US in some 192... He told that many his relatives were left in Borisov(a city near Minsk). He asked me if it is possible to find out something about them. I managed and I was shocked. In Borisov a jewish ghetto existed for just around a month then the nazi took all the people in some field on the bank of Berezina river and shot around 8000 people. Threw them in the pits and covered with a leyer of soil. In several weeks the rotten bodies began to smell terribly and poison the water of the river which was used in the city so the nazi had to dig out the bodies and to burn them. The smoke was in the air of Borisov for a week. 8 our client's relatives were killed then. Scot, don't argue please. You probably din't have to pass through 2 university exams in history. Some things are really not true in that article. For example the fact that only 3 million of Germans were killed is not true. Only during taking off Stalingrad's siege(this was a fast counterattack that took around a week) 700.000 German troops were burried. scottlf Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 5/10/2005 1:33:41 PM   What argument? You orginally implied that the Russian army did not rape anyone because Stalin ordered it. There are dozens of historical records that are counter to any claim it didn't happen. East German's often called the Red Army war memorial in Berlin the "Tomb of the Unknown Rapist". felicedate Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 5/10/2005 1:47:52 PM   Scot. You are right. Dozens. I even assume hundreds and even several thousands(as around several thousands of Russian soldiers were shot for different crimes on the territory of Germany) but two millions... This is a big exageration. Worldtraveller Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 5/10/2005 1:50:20 PM   felicedate, with all my respect, but to me it seems, that you had your history lessons in an old fashioned way. It is a sad fact, that hundredthousands of german women were raped in 1944/45. A famous agitator (cannot remember actually his name) pushed the sowjet soldiers to do the same here (especially when first time entering Prussia) as the german troops did in sowjetunion. Sorry, but this fact is worldwide known. Also the first time I read, that 700.000 germans died in Stalingrad. What a nonsense. The 6.german army consisted of 270.000 man and 90.000 had to surrender. From them 6.000 survived prison camp. From which sources you have the 700.000 deaths??? On the other side nearly 1 Mio sowjet persons died during the fight in/around Stalingrad. This fact was long time carefully hidden, only under Jeltsin step by step published. And one favour: you generalize all german soldiers as nazis. This is not true. To speak about my grandfather, who was forced in 1944 by german military police to leave his farm after short holiday and return back to Ukraina. He died with hunger in prison camp in southern Ukraina. Also I can shake my head about phrases like "Great Patriotic War". Ask the Ukrainians, the Kalmücks, MOldovans, Krimtartars and many others, how patriotic they felt..... felicedate, please use modern and neutral history sources and do not teach Scott who publish right datas and facts. WT scottlf Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 5/10/2005 5:36:07 PM   WT, I don't think there is any such thing as a "neutral history" source. Remember, the victor writes the history. Your Reply: Your name:   New Registration Password:   Forgot password?   refresh Code:   Russian brides > Main Forum > Victory Day
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