Martin:
although we have not exactly seen eye to eye in the past......even I am a little puzzled why you got flamed too!
Maybe somethings can come across the wrong way on screen....always difficult to convey meaning,tone etc when writing to a forum as I'm sure you well know,but I have followed this thread from the beginning and am at a loss to understand the flaming.
Gladiator
You are right. A conversation albeit heated and with completely divergent opinions has degenerated into something pesonal and unproductive.
A pity.
Also yes again you are right what is coming across the screen is indeed coming across badly. Perhaps myself as a quasi American and my fullblown compatriots are a little sensitive but there are reasons.
There is a tendency for Europeans to look down their noses at Americans and the whole world to bash Americans without really knowing the ins and outs of daily American life. Therefore they are apt to get a little tender.
Some of this stuff here 'looks' a little like that even if it isn't. Words are powerful.
The concerns I have raised are because of difficulty of travel, the obnoxiousness of our marriage laws and the general world view that all Americans have got money to burn.
Most Americans do not have pockets lined with gold we calculate everything closely. The laws are constructed to give women dominance in a very passive way. It can ruin a man in a heartbeat.
Therefore we look abroad where we can get a better caliber wife who (hopefully) isn't only interested in rescuing herself, her kids and bailing out the folks back at home. This done all at the expense of said American 'millionaire'.
No, we make delicate judgements in a confined length of time about something that is going to affect us for the rest of our lives. It is almost an impossible thing to do and taxing in every sense.
I am in this boat right now and I am trying to judge what the hell is going through the mind of a woman that I have known for 9 days on the other side of the world and who doesn't speak English!!
And marriage is being contemplated !!
My resources are definitely not infinite. Each trip, each piece of time grabbed from work is calculated out. It mustn't be wasted. It must be used effectvely and wisely.
At this time I am also aware that I am being judged. What can I offer? Fair enough but my tune has changed - where I was initially looking for love now I am looking for love but with an eye on my coffers.
I am watching closely to see if she thinks I am Rockefeller - how often did you say you want to go home? How much did you want to send to your parents? And who is going to finance that? You? With what? Just exactly what do you think you will doing when you come to the USA that is going to yield enough money to finance all this? Oh you have a degree in pedagogical studies. etc etc
Now if you have a job that yields $75k a year and have not squandered it as Mindwire was describing none of this matters. However if you are like the majority of us (and I am sure tons of guys who are in the same boat as me and Jet are reading this and agreeing) this is all a balancing act of unbelievable proportions.
Some here like Deano and Martin would have us believe that this is a pursuit for the wealthy only and I do consider a man with $75k a year wealthy (it is his problem if he wastes it).
I do not agree.
I think there are many women in FSU who have the intelligence to see that if they commit with their whole heart and throw in with this man that offers them an opportunity for not only a better life for themselves and their child but also love. They will not be so anxious to suck down the resources of the family by taxing it with a trip home for extended periods each year.
I am looking for one of these women.
I am not rich but I am stable and there is a future. There are assets, opportunities and a lot of advantages. I just want to make sure I do not end up with a hook in my mouth and nothing to show for it.
Secretly she can go home every year. However I want her to say - I was looking for a husband, I give you my loyalty and support and our family will now come first. My own family understands this and is willing to let go and wish me well in life because they love me. They want the best for me and their grandchild. I will take a risk and do whatever is necessary because I love you and I want to spend the rest of my life with you.
Doesn't appear to be happening yet but I will find out in November or I will move on.
Perhaps this has cleared up any ambiguousness about my thread. It isn't to bash or be bashed it is in the hope of understanding and comparitive advice for guys in the same boat. Don't tell me I am poor that is for me to say not you. Don't tell me I am mercenary or a evil dictator. I am neither.
I know best because I have lived in America for 21 years and this will be done my way because I am financing it.
So take it easy fellahs!
Generally regarded as even a more taboo subject than sex, is money, in our culture anyway.
And the idea that someone working a regular job with a regular income (which $45,000 certain includes) not being enough to MARRY (a fundamental right-of-passage) is LIKELY to raise the IRE of the person being refered to.
This does not HAVE to be a rich man's game and the idea that it is could certainly be deemed offensive. Especially if you've proven you can fly over there, can offer substantial benefits to your lady (and not only monetary benefits) and are given credit for being able to make your own intelligent decisions.
Based on what you write about I think your acting very wisely izzy.
Izi,
But you are 'type casting' me and all Europeans as being the same, if 85% of Americans have never left USA then 85% will have no idea how Europeans, indeed the entire world, view them, they probably saw it on television or read it in the papers and if USA reporting is the same as the rest of the world then one shouldn't believe everything they hear or read and if they do then they are fools.
It has been assumed that I am looking down my nose at Americans but I'm not and I have some very good American friends. I disagreed with some posts in this thread because they were out and out chauvenistic, posts that would offend any female on this planet, posts that do nothing, indeed the opposite, to improve the American reputation and posts that I totally disagreed with and I made that clear.
Such a forum as this should be encouraging females to visit and partake but guys who make such offensive posts are sending them away as soon as they would read such a thing. I, for one, am not a chauvenist and I will shout that from the rooftops if I need to and I was merely voicing my disgust in a public forum.
As for other 'cheap shot(s)' about the relationship I have with my wife, come on then, I can take them all, I have such a happy and so strong relationship with my wife, I don't suffer from the insecurities that other(s) obviously do.
America is a BIG place. We can travel FAR and WIDE, hundreds, even thousands, of miles in many directions visiting an enormace number of different climates, and areas and cultureswithin our own country - without having to get a passport for any of them.
THAT'S why only 15% of us (if, indeed, your figure is accurate) have left to travel outside the US.
The typical American NOVES every three or four years - often from coast to coast, a distance longer than the entire expanse of Europe.
With wanderlust like the typical American has - stick us within the cofines of a small country like Britain and SEE how fast we leave to get to other places.
That when we travel we tend to "See America First" (as there IS so much to see) rather than to venture across the ocean to The Old World seems to be a constant irritation to Europeans who, rightly or wrongly, feel snubbed. Hurt feeling seem to about that we don't give people from much smaller countries the concern and recognition that they feel they are due.
Perhaps we should have more concern as to how others see us. But for most of us (not those involved in this forum of course) its never been perceived as that big of an issue.
That's changing of course - though obviously not fast enough for some people.
Jet,
I wasn't questioning why Americans do not, or feel no need to, travel internationally but the fact remains that a high proportion have not and maybe never will. The 85% is a figure quoted by John McEnroe, I merely repeated it.
Europeans do not feel snubbed by Americans absense on aeroplanes, perhaps Delta & Northwest Airlines, having recently filed for Chapter 11 Bankruptcy Protection, might feel snubbed but not us. Europe has so many visitors from all parts of the world should one nation choose not to travel, well it's not the end of the world.
I think people here just dont like reality. Lots of american men in dating sites moan about "FSU women directness". So if somebody talk about things as they are...its directness or rudness? Americans in that board want to hear only : good luck John, you are right John, show them whos the boss John or something that. I cant say good luck to somebody whos doing wrong stuff in my opinion. All this good old america is OK if its really stayes in Minnesota. But if its international dating people must accept other opinions and that America isnt "über alles".
What about respect, what Martin mentioned. I think in my relationship we both respect each other as personalities and parntners, I dont except somebody respect me only because Im a woman.
Why does chauvinism continue to be mentioned here? It has absolutely no bearing on the subject. Also what on earth do the ramblings of some has-been tennis pro have to do with endorsing how many Americans travel. And who cares if they travel or don't? What has that to do with anything.
If a couple of airlines are going broke again so what. I Have not criticised your relationship. I do say though that I am running this show not the woman. That is not either insulting or dominating it is common sense. When I go over to Ukraine or Russia I am competely in their hands. Why? Because they know best.
Well because I am living in America I know best and I am financing this project. It has nothing to do with feeling superior. It is common sense. They are my assets and I risk them to improve both of our lives. I will be the one saying how they will be risked and deployed not her.
I say again this is not chauvinism. That phrase was coined in the sixties. It is incorrect and has no bearing on any of this. That man was a political extremeist at the time of Napoleon and was a laughing stock in the finish. I am not a political extremist or ever will be. Although I will say I hate Gerge Bush with a passion. Using that word in this context is out of place.
We talk of trying to build a relationship between a man and a woman. I have the choice and am careful not to make a mistake. If she has any sense she will cooperate and then later things will change.
<should one nation choose not to travel, well it's not the end of the world. >
That's what I mean.
We are CERTAINLY not a nation that chooses "not to travel" as evidenced by our interstate highway system and our many airlines that fly us thousands of miles within the US.
Some of us have just chosen not to travel yet to where EUROPEANS consider important (namely to oooh... and ahhh... Europe).
I am gratified, however, to know that its not the end of the world.
When that event occurs, I kind of envisioned it happening more decisively - rather from simply from a lack of tourism.
Izi,
That is where we will have to agree to differ. In my opinion, and the opinions of many, a marriage is a 50/50 partnership and 50/50 means 50/50 or perhaps 60/40 or 40/60, not 'I call the shots and she will do as she's told'.
Please let us call an end to this particular difference of opinion, as I say, we will have to agree to differ.
Jetmba,
When you can find it in yourself to make a mature and constuctive post then I may find it in myself to respond accordingly. Please do not believe for one minute that all Europeans talk about is America this and America that, you're half a world away and we have enough problems, enough to talk about, on our own doorstep.
Annika,
Thank you for your constructive and well thought out post.
Annikas post well thought out and constructive? I don't think so.
Marriage is rarely a 50/50 partnership. I have yet to see one that is. I am 50 years old and lived in many places. They are never 50/50. There is ALWAYS an imbalance. Sometimes financial, sometimes emotional sometimes with just general work contribution to the relationship but never equal.
I have seen thousands of marriages and yet to see equality in any one of them.
Now if you are talking about decisions being made by the couple regarding an important landmark in their lives which affects everybody yes. For example buying a new house in a location that is in another part of the country. Which college the child will attend or a once in a lifetime vacation.
However I have personally experienced that the majority of relationships will naturally produce a leader. My ex was willing despite my best efforts to continually concede because she couldn't be bothered. I have seen this in almost every arena particlarly work. Headless teams fail.
This particular team is my team. I am creating it. She isn't coming to America looking for me I am actively going there. I lay out resources and am proactive. I am the one that will process the papers. I will organize and pay for the flights. It will be me that makes sure she gets to the ESOl classes. I am the one that will research the schools and enrol the little guy. She can't she doesn't speak English. I will provide medical coverage and let her drive my car somewhere quiet so she can get used to American roads.
I am running this not her. It is not a questions of saying you will go to bed at this time or don't wear those clothes. That is ridiculous.
As for respect that is earned not a given. I do not just give respect to anybody. They do not give me theirs. It is earned.
Izi,
I proposed an end to that particular difference of opinion, you have your opinions, I have mine, enough said!
Yes, and whilst Annika does not speak perfect English, she did think about what she was writing and has made a relevant point.
On many of these internet forums, I have talked of it previously, there is too much back-slapping, 'there ya go buddy', etc. etc. etc. regardless if one believes that individual to be correct or incorrect. As Annika points out it is not in her culture, nor in my culture, to say 'bravo' to somebody who one believes to be mistaken and/or incorrect and one needs to speak as one believes and not to speak to gain popularity amongst the majority.
Yes Jetmba,
I am what I am and I will not, never, succumb to 'bullying' by the majority, indeed the minority. I will offer constructive advice and I will call a spade a spade, if you or others don't want to listen then ignore me but I'll carry on, should I choose to do so, regardless of what you or anybody else thinks.
In this thread, I apparently missed post(s) believing Izi to be on a restricted budget, as soon as he clarified that I was mistaken I wished him good luck.
Yes, let people read back and decide for themselves who has the attitude problem(s) around here.
An attitude problem? I seem to recall several months back an individual with a real attitude problem and juvenile actions, monopolizing the forum and writing childish whining posts to each thread. Was that YOU, Marty???
Neon,
Wasn't there some bullying, by the majority, indeed minority, going on around that time?
Anytime that you, or others, want to denegrate back to the 'good ol' days' then you just say the word.
In the meantime, I have been attempting to make this forum more constructive, a place of discussion, exactly what does your post add to this constructiveness?
Dear Moderator,
Despite my attempts to offer constructiveness to this forum it seems that others are enticing me, indeed encouraging me, to blitz this forum with 'crap', just to have a solitary point of view heard.
Now, and as you learnt last time, I have a number of IP addresses thus you cannot ban me from making posts and I am endeavouring to resolve any misunderstandings and/or differences of opinion(s) amicably.
Unfortunately, it seems the 'boys club' are ganging up against me and it seems we are to imminently revert to the good old days, this should be a forum of free speech and mutual respect, if I am not allowed to speak and/or respect freely then I am perfectly capable of making others cyber lives a misery.
The choice is yours, explain to your 'boys club' that they need to get off their high horses and show some mutual respect or .....................
Firstly I applaud you for not succumbing to bullying. You are right in this and I also absolutely agree that there is way too much backslapping going on here and many other forums.
As for calling a spade a spade that is exactly what I have done. I have spoken the truth. It seems distasteful to you but it's the truth. Unadulterated and held up for all to see. It isn't a question of disagreeing. What I have said is pretty much universal it is just that I have actually said it rather than sugar coating everything and saying the politically correct thing as Annika would love to hear. I am not going to pander to the forum.
I have stripped this down to the skeleton and some do not want to look at it. I started this thread to find out what other people were doing as regards to this and we have heard all kinds of extremes. From the ultra as with JMO (who in essence I agree with) to the feminist approach from Annika. It is plain what I am saying. It has been called disrespectful. That is incorrect. As predicted I have been viewed as a tyrant. That is also incorrect although if the correct definition of the word tyrant was understood that also would be innocent.
Yes equality for all. Sounds good doesn't it? Unfortunately it is not true.
All men are not created equal. Marriages are not equal. Although I absolutely do want this they are indeed a form of 'deal'. Actually bound with a license or rather a legally binding contract. There are functions and roles that are not mutually exclusive but generally accepted.
Just as you I do not seek endorsement. Just as you 'I'm alright Jack'. As surely as you are convinced that I am doomed because of my approach I think your liberalism will also fail. I tried it and it didn't work. But you know what? I sincerely wish you the best; I hope that this equality that you and your wife have developed will give you a hundred years of happy marriage. Truly.
Now I want to say something about political systems, which has a bearing on this. It is touted by the western world that democracy is the only way that a society can function in harmony. It is comparable to a marriage. Firstly democracy is something of a joke and the reason is because it is top heavy. Not everybody can have a say it is unworkable and in reality they don't. Elections and 'the process' are a figment of the imagination particularly here in America.
It works in its ancient form with just a city and a small number of people deciding things as in Greece. Even then only the wealthy and influential could participate in the decision-making.
We are bludgeoned with the fact that dictatorships are bad and theocracies are crazy. Military control is evil. Well there is much to be said for that because we never hear about the success stories. The truth is that many countries function quite well under different forms of government. With totally different ideologies.
It really depends on the people involved and their character.
All of this is completely comparable to a marriage. They can't all be doing the hippy thing. Nor is the strict tyranical approach that my grandparents worked with for everyone.
Me, I say it is my money, I will oversee this. With the sincere hope that a real team develops and she throws in with me not constantly looking backwards. Then the real 50/50 stuff will come.
Meanwhile I am not an ogre and unless I find the one who will cooperate all this is null and void. They are out there, thousands of them. Women in Russia and Ukraine (especially) want to feel secure and snug. That is what I offer. She better throw in with me and share my vision of the future or we are wasting each others time.
Annika's post is not well thought out at all. Especially her viewpoint on american men. Which if I may be direct and blunt she has no clue about, especially real american men.
I have a tendency to piss off my politically correct friends because I can be very terse and succinct and blunt. I do not live in a fantasy world of international dating or marriage and I will also not be bound by international viewpoints and opines on what they think is correct because the are usually one sided. As for accepting others opinions, where is that rule written? I'll accept your right to say anything you want, but if I know by my experience to be wrong, I will vehemently argue the point. Many here will condemn some who wave their flag and assail them with post's but, we must accept their post's no matter what. That mindset is idiotic. I won't accept this personally. Especially it is wrong for Americans to wave their flag, oh no, don't do that, the international community might take offense.
So it is okay for the international community to flame americans for their viewpoints, but don't even think about flaming the erudite europeans.
Then we come to a woman who may post here, and no matter how wrong they may be in their opinion, You shudder to think to disagree with them no matter how obnoxious and untrue their statement may be. Because an intelligent and strong rebuttal is "flaming."
A while back, some erudite European made a reference to the Kyoto treaty and why the United States refuses to sign or join in this. First of all no country in the world regulates more on emissions from industry than the United States. How do I know this? I have spent the last 20 years in the industrial and manufacturing industry, I know the rules and regulations and how aggresive the EPA is about issuing fines on businesses that do not comply. I've seen the money spent by manufacturers to comply. Where was the Kyoto treaty born? In the United Nations, the most anti american body in the world. I've spent time in many other countries and your greenhouse emmissions are by far worse than anywhere in the US and that includes Los Angeles. So clean up your house first, we are way ahead of you. I guess it was all the SUV's that caused the dinosaurs to become extinct. Just this past March I was in Paris, the air is horrible, the air in Ukraine is horrible because there is no regulation and if their is someone should enforce it and not worry about what America is doing. Second the greenhouse doctrine is flawed and refuted by many scientists around the world. There have been larger increases in temperature and climate change before the industrial revolution began. My point, well if a European says that the US is evil for not signing or joining the Kyoto treaty, it is gospel fact. If an american refutes it harshly he's flaming the poor european.
As for back slapping each other, that is on both sides of the aisle here. i.e, that was a constructive post. There are many constructive posts here as long as you have an open mind and have the intelligence to understand when a post is done tongue in cheek.
A case in point Izi and I are diametrically opposed on many issues, but does that mean he is not a gentleman? To label someone a chauvinist without really knowing them personally is irresponsible at best. I would catagorize that as flaming someone. Or this community has no problem for flaming someone for their religious convictions, especially if it doesn't coincide with what they believe. As for the reckless comment as FSU women are Godless, the first thing my lady wanted to do when we got to Kiev was buy a scapula of her patron saint. That's pretty Godless to me. I attended a Orthodox service with her in Kiev and saw the people that were there, searching for peace in their lives.
There are too many thin skinned people here, who if you disagree with them, cry and whine. And what one may envision as reality without any basis of fact, is living in a fantasy world of their own.
I have to second Jet's statement above. I have been to more countries than I have to the different states in America, Doesn't make me an expert on many of the countries, it just gives me a taste of the culture. With that in mind, until you meet and spend significant time with a "real american man" you don't even have a clue.