I am just kind of sick of the nasty poison getting flung around right now,so I brought up a newsline,because I am curious about this topic,and how it affects or does not,the good citizens of Ukraina today. Also I wonder why this casting of blame has come after so many years. Is it part of Yuschenko`s sojourn for truth,the rewriting of history for the benefit of young Ukrainians,or simply a noble effort to mass popular opinion behind himself? All opinions appreciated and welcome!
From what I know first hand from my wife who is currently on a visit to her home town in Ukraine, more than half of those who supported the "orange revolution" believe it was a mistake. In fact, during a recent anniversary celebration, only a few supporters showed up. It sounds like the country's many problems were exacerbated the last year. Maybe he has good intentions, but does not have the right ideas or the right people around him. Of course his policies are good for all those who want to visit the country without the hassle of getting a visa.
When my Russian lady from Moldova visited, she had a less than charitable opinion of the former Prime Minister (female, who's name I, unfortunately cannot recall) deposed for supposed corruption. Granted, she is Russian, nnd tends to favor closer national ties in both countries (Ukraine and Moldova) with Russia. But her dislike for a woman DISMISSED BY Yushenko surprised me.
She was quite sure that the dismissal was intentionally orchestrated on the part of the female politician and that she did it to eventually gather her own support and to challenge an ailing Yushenko for power in the next election, pushing the country even futher from Russian influence.
Again, she is Moldovan and not Ukrainian - but she seems to be quite aware of at least the ethnic Russian view in the area.
Julia Tymoshenko---love her hate her-same as any politician. What appointee is not there because of the favoritism shown by- well how about the president of the US` cabinet? Ukraine was devastated by famine which was forced upon them by Stalin-millions of people died. Yuschenko probably could not do any worse of a job than this homocidal maniac did. There was a rally in Kiev that gathered in support of Tymoshenko-I read over 100,000. This is by no means the majority of the city,but many who back her seem to feel that her dismissal was a poke in the eye for democracy. I am not endorsing democracy as the only way though. It seems that each president enriches his buddies-whether through graft or gifting.Yeltsin made a lot of mafia men rich through the cheap purchase of public bonds of commercial/industrial ownership. The bonds were just reduced in value to the point of worthlessness,and then bought up by investors who still own huge blocks of the Russian GNP. Correct me if I am wrong,but I do believe at this point in time,some of these individuals,such as Boris Berezovsky ( probably a misspelling) have been actually forced out of the country now.
Lena's daughter (who is at last year of college in Kiev) was offered 20grv along with her student friends to go and support Victors anniversary of the "Orange Revolution"
After the march - the teacher kept the money for herself !!!!!!!
30's famine...and don't forget the famine we had in 20's and 40's, was an artificial famine, caused by the USSR rulement, over 50 milion of Ukrainians died then...I think this is a very good reason to claim to know the truth, isn't it? And Russia, which called itself an heir of USSR, says "there was no famine"...I think that the respect to those who died then requires the truth, isn't it? Do you know how it was then? And my grandmother and my great grandmother, when they were alive, told me many horrible stories about those times, when streets were covered with dead people, and there was noone to burry them!!!
There was a huge celebration of "Orange revolution", even those who didn't go to Kiev, celebrated itat home, in their own flats! This is not shown of course by Russian and pro-Russian TV channels, and unfortunately 5 channel is not televised outside Ukraine, even in Ukraine it is not televised all over it! And it is truth, sad truth, that the majority of big TV channels in Ukraine are pro-Russian...
Ptichka,
It's good to see that there is a media Bias in Ukraine. I thought America owned that to themselves. Though Larissa was a supporter of Yanakovich, she said there are some good things coming about in Ukraine, but she thinks it will be a long time in coming. The sale of Ukraines Steel mills to the Mittal group should show some economic promise. She said it has already, in the Donbass region the wage improvement in these mills will help the local economy, but how much is yet to be seen.
On another note, I get the Kiev post twice a week, and I was reading an Article where a European court ruled to Give Georgy
Gongadzhe's wife over $600,000 UAH for his death. This is disturbing in the fact this will come out of Ukrainians pockets and not the criminals involved with his death. This should be a point of contention with the Ukrainian people. The people of Ukraine should resolve this issue and not let some lackey court or the Hague decide their internal problems. I would be very wary of the EU's intentions with respect to Ukraine. Ukraine is a sovereign nation, and the people there are very well versed in handling their own problems and they should alone handle the problems.
Nasfy, allow me to enrich your knowledge of international affairs. It is widely known that the CIA gave Yushenko ONE billion USD red hot out of the stove cash to launch his orange revolution project. In fact, a few months after the election the USA complained that Yushenko was not keeping up to his promise to dismantle all links with Russia. Derogatory comments that the USA was ripped off by Yushenko were all over the press. Of course it's not only Ukraine that has enjoyed intervention of this kind, other former soviet republics have had the same experience. I am not going to speak about whether the orange, green or yellowish brown revolution was good for the people of Ukraine since I don't live there and cannot speak about it. I am only wondering where the hell my tax money goes and why the hell one billion of hard cash was paid to a country ten thousand miles away.
Last Tuesday there was a great celebration in Lenin Square in Kherson. Lots of bands and speeches. A whole bunch of people attending and it was cold out there.
My own lady said it was all basically nonsense, I didn't fully understand why she was saying this but she seemed quite cynical of the Orange Revolution in general. But then she also told me that in reality communism was a myth.
Whatever! Suffice to say there was a hell of a party going on nationwide and I am glad that I was there to soak it up a little even if I did have to listen to rap 'music' in Russki!!
When last autumn we had the election campaign, Yanukovich (you know white and blue) searched for any bad thing they can find out about Yuschenko (orange) and they didn't find a single thing:) if somebody, especially USA gave him money for the orange revolution, white and blue party would crucify him and all that idea! But no matter how hard they tried, they didn't find a single thing like that...:)
I can talk on this topic for many hours, no matter how painful for me it is. I'm very proud of my country, and I'm very sorry that my uncle didn't live for another month to see his dream coming true. And this dream he shared with millions of other Ukrainians, so I want to ask you all here, please have at least some respect to the dream people had for many years, and for trying to make this dream come true...:)
All the best Ptichka. I believe something great happened in Ukraine even though I do not understand it. It is part of the growing pains of a new modern nation. I think that although Ukraine is in monetary terms 3rd world it is intelectually the equal of any 1st world country. I am happy I have been there twice and look forward to going again.
But please do me a favor see if you can do something about the Russian rap music. It is awful in English but in Russian downright laughable! :))
Well Wtrav02 and I agree on a certain point, though again he fills this forum with misinformation. One Billion from the CIA. Surely you jest. Yes the election was swayed and it was done by foreign influence, but it was not the US only. I will share the findings that Wtrav02 excluding from his wild exaggeration.
One I do not believe in any foreign influence in any countries election process. In Ukraine the fix was in long before the election started. I personally favor neither Yanokovich or Yuschenko, that is for the people of Ukraine to decide.
As for Wtrav02 claims that the US said Yuschenko wasn’t holding up to his end of the bargain is false. That claim came from George Soros and his international group of goofballs.
One,we do not know how many millions or tens of millions was spent to influence the election. A far cry from the billion that Wtrav02 claims. I think a congressional investigation should be started to find out who sent this money and why. Though Mr.
Soros is more concerned on a Lawyer named Lewis Libby who allegedly lied to investigators about who gave out the name of a CIA covert operative. Which her name
Was know way before this money funneling to Ukraine started.
What we do know and that through a series of cut-out non-governmental organizations (NGOs) – both American and Ukrainian – millions of dollars ended up in support of the presidential candidate, Viktor Yuschenko.We should not support either candidate, that is for the Ukrainian people to decide.
Another fact we know is that the US government, through the US Agency for International Development (USAID), granted millions of dollars to the Poland-America-Ukraine Cooperation Initiative (PAUCI), which is administered by the US-based Freedom House.
Pauci then sent numerous government funds to many Ukrainian NGO’s. This in itself is meddling in a sovereign nations affairs, but to make it worse these NGO’s blatantly supported Yuschenko.
Consider he Ukrainian international center for Policy studies,is an organization funded by theu U.S. Government Through Pauci.On its web site, you can see that this NGO was founded by George Soros open society institute. Also you can see that Viktor Yushchenko himself sits on the advisory board! Things that make you go hmmmmm?
This is not the only NGO, that supported Yuschenko. The Western Ukraine Regional Training Center, features a prominent USAID logo on one side of its website's front page and an orange ribbon of the candidate Yushchenko's party and movement on the other. By their proximity, the message to Ukrainian readers is clear: the US government supports Yushchenko.
The Center for Political and Law reform, another Ukrainian NGO has a link to Yuschenko’s personal website. Yushcenko’s picture was at one time at the top of the website.
In May of 2004 100 million dollars was awarded to Development Associates Inc. who
Funneled several millions of dollars to Yuschenko. One thing is clear, tax dollars and some of the would be king makers, as George Soros so wants to be funneled millions of
Dollars to support one candidate. Remember how pissed we were as Americans with Clintons connections with the Chinese money funneled to his campaign? Foreign funding
Of American elections is illegal. So how is Soro’s and his clan and many of the government agencies getting away with it? I believe Congress and the American taxpayers have a right to know. I believe we urgently need an investigation by the Government Accounting Office into how much US government money was spent in Ukraine and exactly how it was spent.
President Bush was correct in saying that we should not have any influence on the elections in Ukraine. I think we should find out who and how far this went and prosecute those involved.
It didn’t take rocket science to see how quickly the Orange Revolution set up shop after
Yanokovich was declared the winner in the beginning. Though Poros vehemently denies
Accepting any money from US interests, though they met with representatives of both the
NED and Soro’s crew in Serbia. Now Poro’s has even fractured to two distinct groups.
Does anyone see an international influence here. I sure do, George Soros, who so
Badly wants to See Bill Clinton as Secretary General of the UN. Soros is upset now with
Yuschenko, that Ukraine hasn’t move quickly enough to the EU. He is the one who made the claims Yuschenko has renigged on his promise. This did not come from the US State
Department. Also, I find interestingly funny is who the EU looks down at Ukraine and has said they have not made redress for corruption in their country to have the right to enter the EU. I have to chuckle, how quickly the EU has scurried to bury the Oil for food
Scandal and they have the balls to call Ukraine corrupt.
On a side bar, I'm sure Mr. Putin didn't send any money to support Yanokovich. Though Yanokovich through the press was purported to be a KGB thug, what many outsiders forget is Yuschenko got his start in the Kuchma regime. I'm not saying Yuschenko is corrupt, but his political beginnings started in a very corrupt regime. So why was Yanokovich any more corrupt than Yuschenko?
nasfan6, unfortunately you're wrong. Yanukovich got his money for the election from criminal sourses (proved), and of course Russia supported if not with money then with stuff for his team, for creating him a wonderful reputation, Putin showed up everywhere with Yanukovich, so everybody could see, that Yanukovich is a great man and will keep a close contanct with Russia.
Also Yanukovich is an ex-criminal, who was in jail for 2 times, and funny but after the jail very fast he received a very high post. Remember that was USSR, and if a person was in jail (no matter for what) he could only wish for a work of a simple worker, coal miner or anything like that, and still he would be checked constantly (these are not my ideas, this is a reality that was. My dad, when he was the shop superintendent had 2 criminals there, and USSR policy to those people he knew in real life). So try and think a little bit, how could this happen, that an ex-criminal who was in jail for 2 times (Yanukovich) could get the job of a shop superintendent first and then base cheif? :) Only through some very high positioned acquaintances + acquaintances in criminal world:)
I don't want to say that Yuschenko is an ideal, but he looks forward and not back. At least he understands that we can keep trade connections with Russia (why not? after all we're closly situated) but he will never allow Russia to make Ukraine only one of it's region. And this is why I voted for him!
I understand that we don't discuss Russia here, but if you could only see what life there with Putin as a President is. Not in Moscow, but in Russia. Putin there is like a God, he never mistakes, and if the mistake was made, this was the fault of some lazy official, or those "crazy" people who wish to live without Putin. When we had Orange revolution aniversary this year, they showed some Russian politicians, who were celebrating together with Ukraine. And one of them said "today we will drink horilka and will eat borsch and salo, in our hope that maybe one day that thing which happened in Ukraine will happen in Russia, and things will change. If that will happen, I will die in happiness after that"....
The CIA is not as good an organization as some people in the states believe. At times it has acted against the interests of U.S. citizens, but so has done the U.S. government. In fact, the CIA is such a good organization that it gives out its own people's identities when it is for the benefit of the administration that is in power. The Libby and Rove investigation is well justified and I hope it will disclose the corruption of the Bush administration.
It is rightly said that the Clinton administration received foreign funds illegally and I believe it was punished for doing so in the minds of the American people. However, how about Bush's drive for globalization and the selloff of American manufacturing to China by letting the smart Chinese get away with unfair trade practices and a fixed currency system. This republican administration of Bush has been the most unpatriotic and unAmerican administration ever.
Regarding, Yushenko's achievements and Ukraine's prospects I cannot have a personal opinion and if ptichka is so certain thnigs are so much better over there, that's good news. It just happens my own sources tell me different things.
Ptichka, I was being sarcastic about Yanukovich and Putin. Of course the Kremlin pumped dollars into Yanukovichs campaign. Putin openly campaigned for Yanukovich.
I have no problem with the Orange Revolution,though I have problems with outsiders from other countries trying to help influence an election. This is not an implication that Yuschenko knowingly took foreign money for his campaign. What did happen, and what I've tried to expose for many years is there is a subversive undercurrent that is trying to move many countries and politicians towards a one world style of government and trying to destroy the soveriegnty of free nations. What Wtrav02 was trying to imply is the CIA directly tried to fix an election in Ukraine, and that wasn't even close to the truth. I'm sure his next insinuation will be that for this money, Yuschenko has allowed the CIA to set up terrorist prisons in Ukraine.
Ukraine needs to sever it's ties with Russia. Also Ukraine didn't need the EU to have the Mittal group to come in and buy the steel mills in Ukraine. That was private investment. I think Yuschenko's strength is his banking background and he understands a free market. I was reading an article about the Mittal Acquisition of these mills. Some opponents of Yuschenko were complaining how he could sell state assests. These are not state assests, these are assests for the people, not the state. Larissa has told me, that there is a more positive attitude in her city because of this purchase. Working conditions will be better and along with that an increase in wages for the workers due to the investment in the mills to rebuild them and create more production capacity.
Along with severing ties with Russia, Ukraine should be wary of the EU's intent. Ukraine should be a soveriegn and stand alone nation ran by it's people. Which with proper leadership and control of it's own destiny by it's people, it could possibly become the strongest nation to come out of the breakup of the Soviet Union. There will be growing pains naturally, and when it's current political body is rid of anything to do with the Kuchma regime, Ukraine will flourish. I wish Ukrainians the best and wish them great success and freedom in their lives. Chosen by the people of Ukraine, not any other foreign influences.
Wtrav02 as far as I'm concerned I'm not satisfied with the Clinton outcome concerning Chinagate. Also I don't agree with Bushs Globalization agenda or his expansion of federal government. I will stop at calling them the Most Unpatriotic and UnAmerican administration though. Taking money fora campaign in exchange for technology is not only illegal, but borders on treason. That is exactly what the Clinton administration did.
Yeltsin first took power in Russia with the blessings of the CIA. He chose 23 individuals and made them the new Russian elite. Yeltsin distributed Russia's vast wealth to these individuals. Putin was first elected with the strong support of this oligarchy. Putin made friends with them to get elected. After he was elected, he made it clear to them that he owns the political spectrum in Russia and they only own the economic spectrum. Many of them were dissatisfied because they had high hopes Putin would let them have high political stakes. Khodokorwski challenged Putin and he ended up losing his wealth and is now in jail. Another Yelchin favorite, Borozowski, was expelled to Britain and his stake was passed on to Borozowski's protege, Roman Abravovich. Abramovich betrayed Borozowski and became Putin's most preferred friend. Abramovich started as a toilet lid salesman the first years after the end of the cold war and is now one of the richest men in the world with a net worth of over 13 billion US$. Putin let him buy Russia's oil industry for peanuts and then resell it to the Russian government for billions US$. Putin also made Abramovich governor of a vast region in Siberia, which is said to be the richest area in the world in natural resources. Not surprisingly, Mr. Abramovichg has also been given exclusive rights to exploit this region's resources and also has rights to the very important port of Vladivostok. This is only a small flavor of what Russia has become today, an oligarchy and a tyranny for its people, a continuation of the dynasty of the Romanov czars. For all this the main party to blame is the CIA, which, as it also did in Afghanistan and elsewhere, cared only about dismantling what they thought to be a threat to the United States and then abandon everything only to create bigger enemies and threats.
THE GOP: THE SHAME OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
Calif. Congressman Admits Taking Bribes By ELLIOT SPAGAT, Associated Press Writer
Tue Nov 29, 4:04 AM ET
SAN DIEGO - After months of insisting he had done nothing wrong, Rep. Randy "Duke" Cunningham tearfully acknowledged taking $2.4 million in bribes, saying: "The truth is I broke the law."
The eight-term Republican and former Vietnam fighting ace pleaded guilty to graft Monday and resigned, admitting he took money mostly from defense contractors in exchange for government business and other favors.
"In my life, I have had great joy and great sorrow. And now I know great shame," a tearful Cunningham said after the plea. "I can't undo what I have done but I can atone."
But Cunningham, who could get up to 10 years in prison at sentencing Feb. 27 on federal charges of conspiracy to commit bribery and fraud, and tax evasion, may not be the only person ensnared in the case. Prosecutors have indicated they have more than him in mind.
"There's more work to be done," Assistant U.S. Attorney Phillip Halpern said Monday. Cunningham has promised to cooperate.
In the plea, Cunningham, 63, acknowledged working with four co-conspirators to take bribes from defense contractors and others. Prosecutors said the bribes were paid in a variety of forms, including checks totaling more than $1 million, cash, antiques, rugs, furniture, yacht club fees and vacations.
Prosecutors said he used his influential position as a member of a House Appropriations subcommittee to secure defense contracts worth tens of millions of dollars for those who bribed him.
Cunningham, a swaggering former flying ace with the Navy during the Vietnam War, was known on Capitol Hill for his interest in defense issues and his occasional outbursts. He gave patriotic speeches on the House floor, including one in favor of a constitutional amendment to ban flag burning.
The case began when authorities started investigating Cunningham's sale of his Del Mar house to defense contractor Mitchell Wade for $1,675,000. Wade sold the house nearly a year later for $975,000 — a loss of $700,000 in a hot real estate market.
The congressman already had announced in July — after the investigation became public — that he would not seek re-election next year. But until he entered his plea, he insisted he had done nothing wrong.
The 33-page guilty plea did not name the alleged conspirators, but details such as business addresses and occupations made some of their identities apparent. One was Wade, who was the former president of MZM Inc., a Washington, D.C., firm that does classified intelligence work for the military.
In addition to buying Cunningham's home at an inflated price, Wade let him live rent-free on Wade's yacht, the Duke Stir, at a yacht club. Wade's company, MZM Inc., also donated generously to Cunningham's campaigns.
The documents suggest another conspirator was Brent Wilkes, an associate of Wade's who headed a defense contracting company called ADCS Inc. that also provided campaign cash and favors to Cunningham while reaping valuable contracts.
Another co-conspirator appears to be Thomas Kontogiannis, a New York developer. Cunningham wrote to prosecutors in 2000 on Kontogiannis' behalf when the developer was under investigation in a bribery and kickback scheme involving school computer contracts. Kontogiannis ultimately pleaded guilty to fraud charges.
Attorneys for Wilkes and Wade declined to comment. Kontogiannis' attorney did not return a call.
Cunningham admitted in the plea agreement to receiving $1.025 million to pay down the mortgage of a five-bedroom, eight-bathroom Spanish colonial estate he bought with money from the Del Mar home sale. He also acknowledged receiving $200,000 as a down payment for an Arlington, Va., condo.
Cunningham was allowed to remain free while he awaits sentencing. He also agreed to forfeit his mansion, more than $1.8 million in cash, and antiques and rugs.
He is the first congressman to leave office amid bribery allegations since 2002, when former Rep. James Traficant, D-Ohio, was sentenced to eight years in prison after being convicted of racketeering and accepting bribes.
The plea comes amid a series of GOP scandals: Rep. Tom DeLay of Texas had to step down as majority leader after he was indicted in a campaign finance case; a stock sale by Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist is being looked at by regulators; and Vice President Dick Cheney's chief of staff was indicted in the CIA leak case.
___
Associated Press Writer Erica Werner in Washington contributed to this story.