Software Development in FSU

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apal1

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	Send: 8/19/2007 8:44:15 PM

This is to continue another topic I found interesting and wanted to eliminate the extraneous background chatter of that other thread... Ben - tried the software outsourcing angle with an Odessa software firm that oursourced programmers living in Moldova. :) Kiev programmers want a litle more money and I have been told you have to keep on top of them every day (from a Ukrainian software developer). If I wanted to go somewhere with cheaper labor costs, I'd try Chisnau. It's a tax free zone. Let me know how it goes. I'm looking for a partner with an adventurous streak like yours. What type of software development did you have in mind? Websites? or Client/Server? Java or .Net? Ben2006 (wrote) "Interesting Apal. I would think finding the right people there is very important. Never heard of Chisnau being a tax free zone, how so?. Thats where i'm going infact. I think web based or phone/pda solutions are the way to go and i would tend to lend towards java. Probably easy to get one off projects like building websites but ideally you want to develop a product thats sellable. I would imagine it would take some research and time to set up and a well defined business plan. Its something I am considering doing in my spare time when i'm there."

apal1

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	Send: 8/19/2007 8:46:03 PM

I was told it was a tax free zone by my Odessa Software development contact. He owns a small company in Odessa. He told me his developers were outsourced from Moldova where he got breaks on paying taxes. He purchased his car there and his computers there and drove them over. Maybe it was simply that he found a way to circumvent the system perhaps?

apal1

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	Send: 8/19/2007 8:50:50 PM

As for me, I've been working through the dotcoms pre-bust to a full-blown senior information architect level for huge multinational B2B ad B2C e-commerce and extranet websites and ASP's -- down to small mom and pop shopping store sites. I can still use this Odessa company, but your paying roughly 25-50% overhead using my contact. After his recommendations, I would find it hard-pressed to counter argument someone that has been scraping by in the local Ukraine marketplaces. His words to me were that young Ukraine programmers were not very talented. The ones that had any talent go to Kiev and want lots more money than he could afford. OTOH, he mentioned the standard of living in Moldova as being very important and could limit his expenses by hiring programmers full-time and put them up in a small office with a hands-on-supervisor/project mgr type. Food for thought... I really had no way to counter his argument about using Moldovian labor for outsourcing directly.

apal1

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	Send: 8/19/2007 8:55:45 PM

I used to work directly with large consulting firms based out of Bangalore India - Silicon Valley India. They are more expensive for outsourcing than the rate I got quoted from my contact. But if you want to get rates down to $4-7/hr then you have to hire them directly out of Moldova. Best if you get the ones straight out of college, desperate for a job with some type of international potential for their job experience. In fact one huge firm in Wellington New Zealand (Datacom) has a business model of only hiring new fresh kids out of school and promote and train them internally. It limits their earning capacity a great deal, and hince squeezes profits out of the tight labor market there as well.

apal1

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	Send: 8/19/2007 9:03:08 PM

Java is good. You will need to have long-term projects to give them. I'd look about the product first. If you have a killer-app and a goal to aim for that might be interesting. OTOH, if you want to just sell software consulting services, you will need to adjust for marketing and new business development to promote your company to potential western clients. You probably already know this. Are you going Java Struts, EJB, J2EE or java-based web applications using iPlanet, WebLogic or Apache Tomcat? Me? I have lots of interest in the new MOSS 2007 (Microsoft Office Sharepoint Server) with Office 12 integration. Huge market penetration on that one product if you can get in on the ground floor opp to this new technology that is just right now being taken up by companies across the world... food for thought...

apal1

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	Send: 8/19/2007 9:07:56 PM

Oh and if your in Moldova, check out the ads for the Dental industry saturating the UK. If you follow that business model, you'd be a very rich man. :)

ben2006

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	Send: 8/21/2007 1:33:23 PM

Thanks apal. I think I see what your mate in Odessa is doing re tax. ie run it at a loss so he can claim back the tax on business expenses like computers and car. I would use whatever is best for the solution regarding technology. I think having a niche product for something like the Dental industry for example is the way to go (I haven't see any ads about the dental industry and moldova/uk � and I should as I�m in the health industry. I'll keep my eyes open). But if you�re going to focus on one technology then a new one like MOSS 2007 is a good idea as a new and small company doesn't have to support older products. You can be the first on the market or have skills few people have. I think what you say here makes sense, especially having a local manager and the fact that the skill level is low and you need to push them. I know Datacom actually. It�s what a lot of NZ companies do since the grads are pretty well qualified and unlike the US there�s not many software companies for grads to go to so they get the best. I think it�s the best way to go myself. Thanks for the information. Sounds like you pretty experienced in this area and in outsourcing.

apal1

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	Send: 8/21/2007 3:17:31 PM

re: Moldova tax break / workaround Your probably spot on. But somehow the conversation was probably lost in translation around with the "tax free" zone subject. OTOH, I was pretty sure I asked more about it, but let it go from my memories. You wouldn't know it if you were to read my posts, but I'm a gearhead. :) Well honestly, I've been doing senior IT consulting for a few years while working with EDS, Microsoft, Exxon Mobil, Dell and HP... some heavy hitters with a focus on transaction based e-Commerce sites and an even more specific focus on Workflow / Documentation Automation stuff to streamline efficiences on approving electronic content management approval mechanisms for any new web page being posted to the web - as fast as it can be done in a major corporation. Dell and HP are pretty spot on with their ads - I worked on the proprietary little-known system that cycles it through their entire company through everyone of the departments it needs to go through for authorization, in time for it to go to print. Yep, I have to deal with outsourcing a lot with those big companies, as a consultant, I usually get deligated the task of making sure they do their work right sometimes... lol! re: Health care guy in need of a killer-ap... You're in the health industry? I just got back from Colombia -- when I wasn't chasing after a potential wife there, I also went there to perform a vertical market analysis on a potential health care concept to see if it could work. What I realized was that it's got intriguing potential - just dont have the heart to make money on my own. I'm just not very greedy I guess... Yet, It did answer my question on whether it could be feasible and profitable to create medical outsourcing website portal for elective surgeries, especially with the situation in the UK, Canada and the EU with socialized medicine for the future... there's talk on the news this week again about Nationalized Healthcare hitting the US during the Presidential primaries... oh well, so much for another missed on my part. I usually get apathetic about venture partnership projects, as I always seem to run into the wrong unstrustworthy partner at the wrong moment. email at mboolean@hotmail.com if you want specifics details on any of this.

ben2006

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	Send: 8/25/2007 3:33:02 PM

apal, I'll get in touch sometime. I've wondered about this too, actually the company I work for sells a medical portal. It�s not a issue of technology but its the legal/patient privacy issues you have to overcome. I can only imagine what its like having to look after an outsourcing company. Geez potential nightmere!! well at least you get to travel to some interesting places. Yeah I figured your a gearhead :)

apal1

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	Send: 8/26/2007 2:01:49 PM

:) Well if there are NDA's involved, its best not to discuss matters in public forum. Outsourcing can be managed, but you have to 'manage' it. It depends on your timeframe. If you have long term projects - hire a team, lease on office and procure a manager to supervisor the entire operation 8a-5p. If its a short term project - I can give you my contact in Odessa who uses the Moldovian labor force for his small outsource operation.

apal1

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	Send: 8/27/2007 1:33:07 AM

Olga can you delete this topic? Thanks -- too close on Non-disclosure agreements. Plus my email addy is getting a few new junk mails. PLEASE DELETE TOPIC AND ALL MESSAGES. THANKS.

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