I am traveling to Kiev for a week visit in October. I have read countless horror stories on these pages. My brother went there a year ago and had a decent experience...of course he had a lady with him that spoke fluent English and bartered prices quite a bit.
1) I found an apartment for the week @ 80 usd a night. Downtown Kiev. I spoke on the phone with the employee who had many apartments for rent and basically said they were all good area. Located on Lva Tolstogo Square, close to Bessarabska Square, Arena City, metro station “Lva Tolstogo” was one. Another was Located in historical place - Podol, next to Museum of M.Bulhakov, famous souvenir market, metro station “Kontraktova Plosha”
Either of these seem ok?
2) I have heard outrageous stories of food and rec bills. Is it really that much to eat out and have a night out in Kiev? I take it that buying food and cooking at the apartment would be significantly better?
3) I speak some Russian and let me say SOME as in little. I can do basic phrases, words, counting, etc. Definately not even fluent or even good. But I have read in Kiev quite a few speak English.
4) Money. I am not wealthy. I do not intend to go there to wine and dine anyone and burn through money. For a nice week there, outside of apartment living expense, how much would one need to bring to have a good time?
5) I have met several women through Elenas site. Im getting a lot of bad vibes from this discussion forum...almost like meeting someone decent is a complete crap shoot. Ive met one from Odessa who I have spoken to several times on the phone and one from Kharkov. Seems like these women are too good to be true compared to American women but my brother says they are real. He was in Kiev on new years. WHat is the general census? We are both above average looking with good physiques.
6) Im going with my brother...we are both 35 -40 yrs old.
7) Any places you can suggest non tourist? Im not into churches or museums or similar tourist places. I want nice nightlife and a fun week. Any suggestions?
8) LAST question! I have read that when you go to Ukraine, be yourself. In America, you have to play the Don Juan game plan to be with women. You know challenge, game, etc. Have you noticed this to be true (being yourself without the games) with dealing with Ukraine women?
Many thanks in advance friends for your help. I admit, Im clueless!
I have not spent much time in Kiev, 1/2 day at the most between the train and a flight. I have heard it has the normal cathedrals, museums, and some nice parks. I am sure people on here can tell you about them.
If your brother has an English speaking lady there and he has been there before you will get more quality info from the two of them knowing your likes and dislikes than you will probably get here.
One thing you might think about is a plan. A week is a short time. You talk about a lady from Kharkov and a lady from Odessa. Kharkov is a 7 hour train ride from Kiev and I believe Odessa is quite a bit further. Do you have a plan to meet these two ladies. One way for them or you from or to Kharkov is probably 30 to 50 dollars.
It seems there was a thread on here from members wondering if others would be in Kiev. You might look at the first couple pages of thread topics. If you want to party all week you might find one of these guys up for that.
If I was not myself I am not sure who else I would be. It seems your Don Juan game has not been successful in the US or you would not be looking in Ukraine. But without knowing who you are I do not know if you would be more successful being someone else or not. But if you build a relationship on false pretenses what do you really have.
Ukraine is expensive. I was in Kiev last month and spent about $160 on dinner for two including two glasses of wine at a nice restaurant (Mandarin, the sushi restaurant on the river). It's not one of the most expensive in the city, but a nice restaurant and a good place to take a date.
I am in Odessa now, and it is very easy to drop $200 or more on a night out in a club. Once you pay for a taxi, pay the cover, buy yourself a few drinks, but a few drinks for ladies, get a little something to eat, and tip various people it adds up. Last weekend, I went to two clubs and spent about $400 in one night, although the night did last into the next morning.
As for the women, they are definitely beautiful. But they are also not impressed just because someone is an American. I'd suggest doing more prep work and trying to make plans with a few ladies before you show up.
Going out and entertaining someone in kiev will cost you the same as any major capital city like london or NY, eating out 2 or 3 times a day and generally travelling around you can expect to be parting with at least $150 a day, more if your lady has expensive tastes and/or you've got an interpreter in tow as well.
"Money. I am not wealthy. I do not intend to go there to wine and dine anyone and burn through money". Quite honestly if you cant afford to push the boat out a little for a week or so then you cant afford a Kiev girl.
There's plenty of good advice on here about how to spot scammers and meeting a girl from kiev your going to need it.
Ukraine girls want to be wined and dined, its all part of their cultural courtship ritual.
"Money. I am not wealthy. I do not intend to go there to wine and dine anyone and burn through money". Quite honestly if you cant afford to push the boat out a little for a week or so then you cant afford a Kiev girl. Ukraine girls want to be wined and dined, its all part of their cultural courtship ritual.
So basically you are saying women from Ukraine, who make below poverty income in almost every 1st world country, only want to be wined and dined? I cannot believe that. If that was the case, the population in the Ukraine would cease to exists except for wealthy men who could afford them.
I guess also the problem is just that, a Kiev girl. I guess getting a woman who lives in Manhattan would be similar to getting a Kiev girl...big city, big demands type thing. So maybe meeting a woman who doesnt live in Kiev is the ticket...
Im not going to lie, reading these boards is depressing. According to 80% of the boards, Ukraine women are scammers and users. I was talking to my brother about this just today. But I guess it would be depending on the situation.
I think a lot of the posters on this board are older, wealthier men that think money buys everything. Fact, show up in Los Angeles being an older, less in shape and attractive man with money and expect to land a 22 year old knockout and the same will happen. Sure she will let you spend your money on her and may even part with sex but you wont get anywhere near her heart. And if you could with that, she wouldnt be worth having long term.
I have never believed money buys anything real. At least when it comes to character, integrity and long lasting. If a woman is with you because you have money or love to spend it, shes with you for what you can give her and not because she loves you.
So no, I have zero intention on showing up and wining and dining a woman. I dont need that. Never have. If you are saying that a mid thirty, attractive, well built guy with good personality and communication skills cant attract a Ukraine women, then you are saying that 99% of the worlds population has no chance, right?
If you are saying that a Ukrainian woman would only be with a guy because he is wealthy, then again you are saying that 99% of the people wont be with a Ukrainian woman. So please explain how Ukrainian men, who on average make well less than 20k/yr USD have no shortage of women to be with them?
There are good girls there that would probably suit you fine. I think a week is not long enough to start looking cold and get a good relationship going. I do not think you need a boatload of money for the lady you want but you may in the process meet more that will expect to dine out if they are on a date than you do that want to eat a sack lunch.
For this short of a trip you need your lady lined up so you can spend every minute possible with her or plan on just a meeting trip this time and come back in 2 or 3 months to get to know each other. Make sure you tell her you are not expecting to spend money on dining so you will find one that will accept this.
"So basically you are saying women from Ukraine, who make below poverty income in almost every 1st world country, only want to be wined and dined? I cannot believe that. If that was the case, the population in the Ukraine would cease to exists except for wealthy men who could afford them. "
Kiev is very wealthy micro-economy. If you think a girl is going to be wide eyed with awe as you stump up for a meal that would cost her a weeks pay you are very much mistaken, these girls may not earn it but they sure as hell are used to spending someone elses ...
My lady put this into perspective: "kiev has many very rich local man - to a pretty kiev girl 'a expensive gift' is an apartment or a car - not a few $1000 worth of clothes"
"So maybe meeting a woman who doesnt live in Kiev is the ticket..."
Honestly, I think this is a more realistic idea. If you can make prior arrangements to meet a few girls from smaller cities you have a much better chance of success than if you just show up in Kiev with limited Russian skills and no intention of wining or dining anybody.
If you are serious about finding a woman, I'd scrap plans for Kiev and focus on one small city. Write to girls from this site, and/or find a local agency. Try to establish some kind of relations with a handful of girls and then go and meet them.
If you just want to have a fun trip and a good time, then Kiev is probably better for that.
"Kiev is very wealthy micro-economy. If you think a girl is going to be wide eyed with awe as you stump up for a meal that would cost her a weeks pay you are very much mistaken, these girls may not earn it but they sure as hell are used to spending someone elses ...
My lady put this into perspective: "kiev has many very rich local man - to a pretty kiev girl 'a expensive gift' is an apartment or a car - not a few $1000 worth of clothes"
So basically what you are saying is that women in Kiev are nothing more than high priced Prostitutes giving their attention for money and gifts right? We have a name for women who subscribe to that occupation having that kind of that character and integrity in America - they are called Strippers or Gentleman club dancers. Im not seeing a difference except it sounds much more common in Kiev.
It would take a mighty desperate or foolish man to throw money away for attention. Especially when its a pay as you go attention.
Ukraine is a aggressively dog-eat-dog economy, the residents of Kiev are at the top of the pile of this economy - those who are most adept at climbing over the still warm bodies of their contemporaries.
The girls aren't necessarily "whores" but they are aware of the local high market value of their beauty and very determined to exploit it. Although women all over the world are driven my money to some extent, its built into their genes, Kiev is worse than most places for this however because a combination of factors: the competitive dog-eat-dog nature of the ukraine economy and social structure, the lack of social safety net that would normally accompany such a concentration of wealth, the lack of well paid steady jobs that we westerners take for granted. A pretty girls options in kiev are a) find wealthy local man c) prey on affluent foreign men c) study hard for years and then slave away at a thankless bearocratic job for a pittance . Its a fair assumption that option (c) is not the first choice for most of them.
Kiev is one big very slick foreigner fleecing operation, on so many levels, the girls are just one cog in the big machine.
"So basically what you are saying is that women in Kiev are nothing more than high priced Prostitutes giving their attention for money and gifts right? "
That's not what he's saying. The point is that values, dating behaviors, sexual norms, and gender roles in relationships are different in Ukraine than in the U.S.
I don't think the girls in Ukraine are prostitutes, but they definitely expect a man to pay to take them out. There is no such thing here are "going Dutch," at least not that I've ever heard of.
I hate to burst your bubble, but mid-30's foreigners with decent physiques and nice personalities are a dime a dozen in Ukraine. Maybe there was a time when being an American bumped a guy to the front of the line, but not anymore. Many girls here would rather try to find a successful local guy than move to Kansas with a normal American guy.
It seems like you already have your mind made up about everything, though. You're going to show up in Kiev, without speaking Russian, and without the money or willingness to take girls out for nice dates, and yet you're somehow expecting to attract lots of nice girls.
I'm not trying to depress you, but in my experience, it just doesn't work that way, sorry.
Guys on this forum aren't old rich guys that "think that money buys everything." But, unlike you, many guys here have been out of the country--to Ukraine and Russia multiple times over many years. I don't claim to have all the answers, but I am living in Odessa. I see this stuff every day.
Maybe we should ask you some questions ndfb to see what we are talking about. If you are staying there 7 days or 6 apartment nights that is $480 at 80 per night. Now how much cash do you plan to take? What is your definition of good night life? First off the ladies I have been there to see have not been that interested in the bar scene. So with that being said the expenses I am looking at excluding room rent are in an average day for 2 people. 20 dollars for drinks usually juice, coffee, or tea. $20 for transportation, $30 entry fees (museum, bowling, skating, whatever) and $80 to eat one meal for two out. If you need an Interpreter add another 30 or 40 dollars. So if you figured $200 a day you would need to take $1,400 plus the $480 for apartment rent or around $2000 for the trip. If you are going to the bar or disco I am guessing you are not as generous as either Gemini or VNV so you could probably shave a little off of what they spent but need to add that to the $2000 spending and apt money.
Now let me also ask how you are going to control your expenses. Do you or your brother know Kiev well enough to decide the places to go or will you have to rely on the lady(s) knowledge for this. You will have to decide this. I have never ask a lady how much a particular restaurant will cost but I guess you could try asking in correspondence. A better method may be to monitor how much you spend a day and if you spend more than your budget or after the second date or so suggest cooking a meal in your apt for the lady. Or take one or more days off and sit in your apartment and keep repeating I wish I was not so cheap and had more money. Then your budget will be increased one day off = $1500 / 6 days instead of 7 and increases your budget from $214 per day to $250 per day.
If your budget is smaller than even this you could get your food at the market and stay in your apartment all of the time until you are ready to come home. That would really save money.
It is difficult for us to say how much you will spend without knowing your methods. If you have no ladies to meet you may need money to pay for meetings.
Now with this I am going to assume you do plan to pay for their meal. If you have them pay for their own meal it would save money in two ways--you would not have to pay and you would be eating alone the next night.
ndfb, you can also think of it this way: Ukrainian women don't view your wealth relative their own - they view it relative to the other men who are interested in them i.e. local wealthy men, and other foreigners.
yah I like the small town girls better. when you travel abroad you gotta expect to do as they do no matter where you go. the bigger citys attract more compatition. try the smaller citys. and have a back up plan.
Finally some other people have "seen the light". This topic is what I kept telling people in this forum since I joined and still people keep recommending Kiev to meet girls for newbies.
If you are not a millionare and want a hot girl? Steer cleer of Kiev and Odessa. A man making $50-$100k per year is not going to impress them, as some of our illustrious wiser men in this topic know all to well by personal experience alone - and I concur. Kiev prices are the equivalent of Moscow and London and Los Angeles. Just picture trying to pick up a hot girl in Los Angeles and wining and dining her there and you'll get the right picture of Kiev.
I kept arguing this with so many people who kept trying to insult me into oblivion when I kept pointing this out on my first visit to this forum on my way back from Ukraine. I listened and bought into the hype that permeates almost all forums from complete idiots that had been there 10 years ago. It is not the same place at all!
If I had known what I know now I would have gone to the much smaller towns where westerners are appreciated and a girl's aims are less ambitious. There are indeed micro-economies and each girl in Kiev and Odessa knows her worth is based on her appearance first, professional skills second.
Thanks guys. I am so tired of people saying Kiev is the best place to meet girls. Sure if they are homely looking, overweight and past 30 and still single... but you can find that girl in any city in the US/UK...