Lets finish off what happened to me chronologically
At night Aug 29 I tell the driver (Ibrahim) to be ready at 6:00AM to go to Simferopol. Incidently if you stay at the Krimski and are planning to use a taxi, use him. Hes cheaper by a mile. From the hotel to the Bus station cost me 20 Gyvinas, a normal taxi charged me 35 (after trying to charge me 50).
In the morning Im off. Kind of solemn really. A mostly or completely wasted trip. We arrive at 7:40. There are two terminals. But just follow the other passengers with luggage to find the place. As its a small airport, the layout is slightly different - No big boards constantly changing. Just one that displays the flight number. Talked to a British guy who had lived in Cyprus for the last 20 years - he loves the place. He married a lady from Sevastopol about a year ago (she was there) and taught her English himself over 7-8 months. They had come to visit her family.
Seems a lot of smart cookies are leaving the west, with its feminazi nanny state and overregulation (read some of Fred Reed's website). Im not prepared to do that yet - but I remain open to the idea. Maybe.
I make my way on to the flight at 9:30 (left a lot of time just to be careful). We have to walk to the plane. Strange.
As we line up to board, a baggage handler takes my bag from me. Too big apparently. When we board - I see why. The overhead compartments for storing luggage are simply angled open bins. This is some Soviet backward aircraft. The ride itself was REALLY bumpy. For 10 minutes or so, it was like being ona bridge - going up and down, having my internal organs jostled constantly.
We get off at Kiev. Another overcrowded room waiting for luggage. Im resigned to missing my flight again really. Have to wait about 1 hour before the luggage carousel starts up. Ill say it again, nothing works in the Ukraine. Nothing.
When I finally get my luggage its 20 minutes to take off time for my flight ot Charles De Gaulle, Paris France. I make a quick stop to change my UAH to Dollars. Generally the customs dont care even though its illegal to take any UAH out of the country - but Im not taking any chances.
I scoot over to Terminal B. At the Air France Counter, they tell me boarding is finished for Air France. The counter Lady takes a Walkie Talkie to see if she can stop the plane. It works. She quickly closes her counter and takes me and some young lady from Boston who was in the same situation as me to have our baggage loaded. I chat with the lady- saying ' if you dont mind Im going ot stick to you like glue till we are on the plane cause you speak Russian' We make more small talk - as soon as her passport is stamped the clerk tells her to go up the yellow elevator to boarding. Shes gone in a flash. I would be satisfied with a look, or a 'Sorry, I got to go', but shes just a bitch. My passport takes longer because its bangladeshi - but in 2 minutes I get the same directions from the clerk.
I get up the elevator and there are 2 huge lines with no signs explaining what they are. You have to appreciate that I am highly adrenalized - so not thinking too clearly. And not used to Airplane Travel in general. I look for an official for a minute. None. I ask some random fellows, they say something in Russian and shrug.
Wait - I see a uniformed lady! at the entrance to the other room. Saying "Izvenchiya" I make my way to the front of the line - show her my ticket and she looks at me and walks further away. It wasnt someone in Uniform - just looked like one. Embaressed in front of 70 people. But the adrenaline keeps that in check. I ask one more random couple. More gibberish and shrugging.
After waiting for another 30 seconds to a minute - I got to the front of the other line saying 'Izvenichiya' (other line because its less embaressing). I actually go through the doorway - and theres a clerk on the other side stamping tickets. I cut in and say in English " My Flight leave now". She doesnt look up, but stamps whatever she has to. Then I load my baggage for security check and go through.
Now Im in a big terminal again. Where to go? What to do? I dont know. Remember the plane is waiting just for me. I see the cyprus guy and quickly ask him what to do. He says go there to Passport Control. I ask what would happen if I cut in? He says try and explain it. My chief rational fear was I would be stopped by some pompous Military or Security guy and create more problems if I cut in a line thats already 70-100 people long. Anyway I cut in with the mandatory "Izvenichiya" get to the front and get through.
I get my passport stamped and get through.
Its the boarding area. I am drenched in sweat by now. I squint at my ticket to find the terminal. And begin to run towards it. I see the Air France Ticketing Lady looking for me. She hails me over and takes me to the gate. I say "Thank you so much for all your help!" She smiles and I jog through to the plane (western style direct to plane loading).
I get on, and make my way to my back seat. Time is 12:55. When we are supposed to take off.
In my seat, a air hostess kneels down to eye-level and asks me (still puffing) if I would like some water. I reply "Yes, please!"
We take off 20 minutes later with priority landing clearance for Paris France so the flight wont be late.
And that ends my adventure. There were a few hiccups in Paris France and Montreal - but nothing major and its irrelevant to this post.
There are some details and background I should add to flesh out what happened, to clarify some of the comments made in the PART B Thread.
I had been talking to Nastya for about 8 months (well 7 and a quarter given the RLM hoax). It wasnt an all day long conversation type thing. More like a letter or two a week, and a chat every now and then if averaged out.
I had originally planned to visit in March, but I ended up having a dispute with my money in the bank (long story and irrelevant to this discussion), so I had to cancel that. Thing was I didnt know *IF* I was going to get the money back
- so I was reticent about telling Nastya (or the other girl in Sevastopol for that matter) that I was coming.
Now for the last few years (I am 28 right now) I have been dicking around in High-Stress Low paying jobs. Up to the age of 25 I didnt really have many options (yet another irrelevant long story). But between 25 and 28 my life was
coming together - working and stuff. Reason I choose the relatively low pay jobs over college is to start my own business in the field of agriculture. I gave up on the idea in the end. Im still convinced it would work - but there are too
many uncertainties for too small a relative reward.
So, being blessed with a high mathematical aptitude - even at the late age of 28, I enrolled in College - Computer Science (Engineering would take 3 months longer as Id need more prerequisites, and the salaries are about the same).
Whats the point of all this? Well basically what Im trying to say is I was Time constrained in many ways. I would get the money in August from the bank - but wasnt going to make any plans before that. When I did get the money - I
tried to contact Nastya.
So on one hand, I got college starting in September (Sept 2nd was my first day in fact), on the other hand I have a limited budget for the next 4 or so years. It was a now or never situation I was in. Time and money wise.
Of course there was also the constraint of "How long can I just talk to a girl on the net without taking the next step?" Behaviorally, it also meant I was willing to jump in and bring her over if we got along moderately, even if not with
certainty.
So I book the flight about August 5th (?). In a sense I was planning on using Nastya. Using her to change my life for the better. I figured it was a risk, but at the same time the 3000 or so bucks budgeted is something that would easily
be compensated if it worked out - not just in a pleasant home-life (my then and now current situation is close to intolerable, but I will decline to elaborate further), but also in cash as she could easily get work in Canada to
compensate the $3000. All this required, as well, quite a bit of long term thinking on my part because the fiance visa process would take 6 months to a year.
I genuinely liked Nastya. I just add the above to let you guys know I had a bit of an "angle" as well, and it wasnt just all blind love.
Now one thing: There are two types of knowledge. Emotional Knowledge and Intellectual Knowledge.
Old hands at this 'game' have a lot of knowledge to give - but its generally conveyed in the form of intellectual knowledge. As this is a very emotional game, what that generally translates to is the knowledge being ignored.
Another prominent factor is that emotional knowledge will differ according to the personality type and past experiences of the guy involved - even if reacting to a uniform (or at least similar) situation. To take an example - Being burned abroad, would lead to Aussieman to condemn the whole thing and never try again, to another type of person to try the same exact thing (that got him burned) again hoping to meet a different kind of woman who would understand him to all shades in between (sorry aussie - no disrespect meant nor do I know exactly what you would do- just trying to convey a thought succintly).
So, in this three part post - Ive tried to include a lot of emotional knowledge so newbies might actually pay attention. I wrote it, partially as catharsis, partially in reciprocation as I got some good advice here and partially just to help newbies. Vets, please refer newbies to it for at least a few months to come!
Firstly,
It should be strongly noted: The women you meet will not take it as seriously as you do. This could be as much economic as psychological. Even though a woman has signed up to meet someone abroad -
a) They have probably also signed up to meet someone locally. I found Nastya on lov.ru after all and didnt get her contact details from RLM.com. Maybe you get bonus points for being a foreigner (aura of mystery, exoticness, perceived as less callous than local men etc) but it could well be you loss points for being a foreigner (jarring change for woman, thinks money is too important).
Those deserve sub-comments :-
1)Jarring Change for a Woman. Here we have a person, nice or no, who is being asked to go to a country where they dont even speak the language or speak it at a basic level. Did you ever take french or Spanish in school? Not much
success right? Same Deal. In fact they might not realize the seriousness of it till you visit them. Thats dangerous for you, as you'll be out a $1500-2000 ticket, they lose nothing but a slight readjustment in thought patterns.
2) Money :- Even if the girl is honest, they have to stereotype - westerners are rich. With no further information to go on...Ergo its no big deal for the men to come over in their minds.
But its not just money to you.
Its listening to that asshole boss for another 200 hours, 2-3 months of no fun all work, the worry of interest accruing on your credit card. The girls cant see this, you can. Seeing how love and relationships is involved its all too easy for them (and you!) to think "This is for love, money is unimportant" - after all, they dont pay (I emphasize this applies to good girls as well, who you have a good chance of taking with you)
Now this brings men to a quandry. We are going for love after all. And if its the first time, we have very limited emotional knowledge about the situation.
Meet 2 or 3 girls? As backup? Thats so cold. And so unfair to my special lady (and the others besides)! Absolutely true.
Meet or have as backup 2 or 3 ladies? But then I wont pay as much attention to my girl! Not very noble minded as all. Absolutely true.
If I set out to meet 2 or 3. Simple arithmetic tells me that 1 or 2 will be disappointed - is that fair to them? This one deserves comments.
Us men who go there, fueled by love have a tendency to think ourselves as saviours. This is natural and good. We are taking these girls away to a better life. However, with the absence of on the ground personal emotional experience -
its simply not understood that these girls are human beings who are living their lives out pretty ok. Not rich, hard work perhaps. Perhaps even harder times once their natural beauty fades at 30+. But nonetheless its the only life they
know. They do not consider it inferior, though they may schizophrenically want to go to the west more than stay in Ukraine/Russia (perhaps not all of them though).
So whats the solution? There isnt one. Only trade-offs.
-Maybe you should go on a tour.
-If visiting only one girl - maybe you should be prepared, if necessary, to contact others if things fail. And extend your trip time if necessary (flexible tickets)
-Maybe you should prearrange to meet 2 or more girls in the first place.
All with different rational and emotional trade-offs. But bear in mind my comments on their life. I doubt they would be devastated if it didnt work out between you two. Disappointed, yes. Devastated? no. Just my current opinion.
Just throwing this in - When I talked to Nastya seriously a few times. I asked her if she liked me, or if she didnt like me and that was the reason she didnt want to come. I added "Just be honest. I will not feel bad, but I need to
know". Her answer was always a serious "I dont know". Being nice? Keeping her options open? Either isnt very fair when I come half way around the world, and we have been talking for so long. I partially fault her for this - but a large
chunk of it is the weird situation we were in as well.
The question must be asked whats wrong with Western Women in the first place? A stealth question, because by implication, its why we are all here.
Part of the reason is of course Western women want men their own age so the pool is larger abroad for older men especially.
Partially the reason is western women are, on the average, fatter. Lets just admit it.
Partially also they are less attractive, even discounting the fat factor. I think this one is overhyped but still somewhat true.
However the above are, in my opinion, a small percentage of the reason. I wont elaborate here - but I strongly recommend everyone reading this read an article called "Sexual Utopia in Power" By F Roger Devlin who writes in it
extensively about Modern Male-Female Relatonships in the West. You can get it here: http://public.box.net/mensarefugee26388 (click the blue arrow). In my opinion, THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT 'MUST READ' ARTICLE.
Its quite long, but I have never seen the western situation described better, with hard headed analysis, anywhere else. You'll know if you want to finish it after reading the first 10 or so of the 50 pages, so its not that big of a time
investment.
Of course the question arises- are Eastern Women different from Western ones? For Ukrainians and Russians, honestly I do not know. I strongly suspect there are differences and its worth risking, but thats just my opinion. For other
countries, for example mexico - Im a little more confident that there are differences. Read some of Fred Reed's articles on the subject: http://fredoneverything.net/ . A randomy chosen one where he tackles the subject (he has better,
Im just not going to search through the lot, do it yourself) is http://fredoneverything.net/Maureen2.shtml
If you decide to take the plunge - it will probably be through an agency.
Rule 1: Get the agency out of the way as soon as possible. Start talking to the girl DIRECTLY. If she doesnt speak english, use BabelFish or Google Translate. They work pretty well. And you can always keep a Russian speaking
interpreter on hand just by searching kijiji ot craigslist or whatever for Russian language teachers.
A GOOD agency will have no problem with this. I think loveme.com,fiance.com, luckylovers.net are good, but Im not vouching for anyone. Bad ones FOR SURE - Russianlovematch.com/hotrussianbrides.com. Though I will admit they
taught Nastya English well (not a reason to choose them - it could just be their Yalta agency).
Another way is lov.ru / mamba.ru. As long as you can get an online russian keyboard, Google and wikipedia to learn the names of the oblasts (provinces/counties) in Russia/Ukraine. You can use it.
Learn to read Russian - its a phonetic language - so this is easy. For example POCCNA is russian. It just spells RUSSIA. 'P' has the sound of R, 'O' has the same sound in english, 'C' is s, 'N' is i (backwards 'N' actually) and 'A' is a.
Simple isnt it? only 33 letters, half of them the same as in english. Just do it. It will also help you if you decide to use/supplement your search with lov.ru anyway. And reading the signs when you are there is a big bonus. Another
example- PECTOPAH - which spells phonetically RESTORAN (restuarant). Before I actually learned to read it, I assumed it meant Gym - oddly placed gyms at that!
Try also Pimsleur Russian Level 1. I cant recommend Level 2 and above. Pimsleur explains a few things badly and these problems build up till its intolerable to use. But if you dont mind, by all mean. Also theres Rosetta Stone, I dont
like it, but you can try - especially for the letter learning. The best is the late Michel Thomas, but unfortunately he didnt make a Russian Course.
Summary:
-Think about how many women you will meet carefully (tour, one,two, more-non tour). Remember its an emotional decision, and you have to make it. Others advice is sometimes useful, but they could react to different situations
differently from you.
- Get the agency out of the way ASAP. Ergo only use agencies that allow you to contact a lady for 10-50 bucks per address. Be careful with credit by the minute agencies, and try to only use them if you can get the ladies address from somewhere else and beware many, maybe the majority (chat agencies and the women on them) of them are scammers.
- OverBudget. Your trip will probably cost you 20-30% more than you think
- Use a flexible ticket if you can
- LEAVE A LOT OF TIME BETWEEN FLIGHTS FOR FLIGHT TRANSFERS ETC when visiting Ukraine/Russia
- Take a Russian Phrasebook and learn the russian letters and preferably some of the language
- Credit Cards. I found Visa easily used at Cash machines, and a lot of "Cirrus" Signs. I didnt see that many "Plus" Signs though - only on 2 ATMS on the promenade in Yalta. So plan accordingly.
Adman had asked (in part B)what I would do if Nastya contacted me. Honestly I dont know. Im moving towards not contacting her back, moving towards it being intellectual rather than emotional, but I wont know till it happens. If she doesnt contact me within the next two or so weeks Im quite certain I wont reply or contact her again. Before that is a grey area to me (or am I dreaming?).
The problem being of course, that I am effectively barred from contacting anyone else as I wont be able to follow through for a few years. But theres always college I guess. I got a lot of rickity options at the moment.
It was quite an experience, and though it went wrong - I think I learned a bit.
I hope the newbies got something from my posts. Thanks for reading.
Evil...worst decision you can make is one based on emotion. Best if you take emotions out of decisions and use the brain. Emotions are for your feelings toward another person but if you are making a impact decision, such as taking someone from the only life they had ever known, much thought needs to be done. It is interesting you had in your mind that if you and Nastya got along moderately, you were willing to bring her to your country. Sounds like you were making life changing decisions for both of you, well before you even met. I think you forced the issue, whether it be Nastya or your future, I still can't believe you sat there at her work, I could never be somewhere where I am not wanted. Why did you not see the large signs??? Do you think it was coincidence that Jane and her guy came to shop and went to bathroom for short time and after they came out, you were asked to join them to Botanica Gardens??? Girls are turned off by guys that seem desperate and you my friend were as desperate as they come. I do appreciate your candor in telling your story, hope some people can learn from your experiences. It was doomed from the beginning, the fact that you had to communicate through sms messages to 3rd person in Kiev and other sites was a red flag.
I had a situation one time that 3 days before my trip, I found out through an agency that girl I was writing has history of flaking. I made a few calls to other girls( I never stopped writing to other girls)and on the morning I flew into Kiev, bought flight ticket,decided where I would go and got my apt...all within 3 hours.
I can tell you don't know much russian. There is 'ONLY' 31 letters. Only 5 letters are same as English-to-Russian but their sounds are not always the same,ie: O sounds like 'AW'. Other 7 letters that look like they are english have other sounds completely. ie: P sound like R, H is an N, B is a V. Vowels have completely different sounds than english...as far as being easy...far from it. Even girls I talk to tell me russian is difficult language to learn. Rosetta Stone is very dry and gets boring very fast.
Despite some of the critism you have or will encounter, I do highly appreciate you taking the time to write your detailed experience. I am fairly new to this scene. I have spent a few months communicating with FSU girls. I have had a dsome success of contacting girls outside of their agency. Surprisingly enough the main girl I have been talking to is in Yalta so this story becomes even more interesting due to that fact. Thanks again for sharing this story. Your information and others will help me make right decisions in the future if I decide to travel to the Ukraine.
No, I dont know much Russian. Did I say I did?
O to Aw is close enough for a foreigner. Its for newbies, not cultured experienced folk. Just enough to work your way around and be understood.
"Simple isnt it? only 33 letters, half of them the same as in english."
That just sounded like it was pretty simple. I have been trying to learn language for most of a year and still cannot carry a good converstaion. How do you pronunce 'Rossia'?
Evil, I don't mean to be crtical of you. Your decisions were based on how you saw things, nothing wrong with that. Just trying to get you to see the big picture. Beautiful young girls have a way to confuse your mind.
Sitting at her work was not best decision, I'll stand by that. Remember, you went there several times a day. It is also not best time to have serious discussions. It doesn't seem Nastya was one to confront anybody, her way was to say, I don't know', which really meant, no. And you are right, nothing that happened was fair to you but she was never into you. I do feel bad for you for what happened but your decision making was not very good. Still don't understand why you gave her money for what..nothing???? And people wonder where girls get the idea that these western guys are just giving money away, it's an expectation now.
I hope if Nastya contacts you, you have the strength to turn away and use your mind not your heart.
Good luck in your future endeavors. Maybe one day you will be in the position to try again. You are lucky to be young, to have time on your side.
One last thing, I do use free russian sites. I have been on mamba.ru/luv.ru/love.mail.ru, they are all the same, since last year and am still in contact with one girl. Just find one that knows english, it is on their profiles, and write them in english. You can learn some russian by just going to sites like freetranslation.com, cut and paste messages to girls. Don't need russian keyboard, although I did buy stickers for keys. You find after a bit that some do know english.
1)First of all, I believe she really was sick. Apart from the medication she showed me, on the last day I had diarrhea and the beginnings of a fever. In fact the only way I went to college the last week was due to a powerful home remedy about equivalent to antibiotics.
I could have got this from drinking tap water I suppose, or I could have got it from Nastya who was recovering from a fever so bad that she was hospitalized for days.
2)Moving on, A STRONG WARNING ON WHY IT IS NECESSARY TO BE IN **DIRECT** CONTACT WITH THE LADY.
I sometimes wrote Nastya emotional letter, and she replied emotionally.
Say.
"Nastya, remember when you first wrote to me, you said you were alone. You wake up alone, you cook for yourself, and watch TV and entertain yourself alone. Its not a bad life, but you are alone.
I want to say, that I am alone as well. If not in my home, then in my heart. I wake up alone, I live for myself, entertain myself and experience the world by myself. Its not a bad life and I am not complaining, but I am alone."
Will you take a chance and see past my mistakes to my heart and maybe we could end our loneliness.."
Etc etc. (That is my memory of an actual letter I wrote just before going. It went to the imposter in the RLM Yalta agency. And she responded affirmatively and happily). [Heck things could have been different if she read all that!]
Horrible as it is that they did this to me, and set me up emotionally to expect Nastya to be eager to see me...
I have a larger point:-
WHAT IF THEY WERE DOING THIS ALL ALONG?
For instance, earlier - when I was talking to the real Nastya. Suppose I wrote this same letter.
What if the Interpreter was lazy and just wrote
"Nastya, I love you, and would love to be with you. Please be glad I am coming!"
HOW WOULD YOU KNOW THIS HAD NOT HAPPENED? The answer is you wouldnt know. Same deal for any letters your girl writes to you.
SO FOR GODS SAKE - GET THE AGENCY OUT OF THE WAY. An honest one will be willing to sell you the address for a nominal fee and then leave the letter writing to you or to their services **as you see fit**.
If you take nothing else from my experiences, take that. It is most important.
Evil you could have saved yourself a lot of grief by reading this forum alone. I've always advocated "No Agency." Along with with many other forum members. Would have saved you much time and grief and money.
Evil, I did manage to wade my way through "Sexual Utopia in Power".
I was left wondering if the guy wrote it as a joke, or is he serious? If serious, I think he has serious problems relating to women.
His notion of women wanting to mate with the leader of the pack obviously has some natural bases, just like men want to mate with the most attractive women. He starts to bother me when he alludes that it should be allowable for the other men, who are not the leader of te pack and naturally missing out, to rape the ones the want. He spends half the aticle trying to defend date rape. It would seem he has had a few problms with this.
I couldnt see anything in article that is helpful in understanding and promoting a good relationship with a woman.
There are lots of things that are important to a woman, (They like to be needed and they like to be wanted), among a few. Could be more worth while books on this.
Youre welcome to your opinion Adman. I could easily retort, say, by saying your comments are the male protective instinct at work? After all, why are you on a russian women site if you find nothing wrong (or not enough right) with american women?
I for one found I agree with about 70% of the article. I know a few people who agree less, and quite a few who agree more.
But tbh, I dont want to turn this thread into a debate on 'Sexual Utopia in Power', it was said in passing because its part and parcel of a part of my thoughts - seeing how this thread is on that subject.