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	Create New Topic   My Posts   My forum buddies   Invite friends   Private messages Russian brides > Main Forum > A Goodbye to my Ukrainian girl Part 1 Author Post sams Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 7/15/2009 7:06:20 AM   What is love? Love is trust, respect, giving, receiving, affection, passion, and always the truth. Love is having common interests, similar values. Love has to be mutual, otherwise it will self destruct. Love can create beautiful everlasting memories. These beautiful moments are what we chase. Once you have one of these moments, you want more. The abused woman stays for that moment. The unloved stay because they live in the memories of those moments. Fighting couples stay together for those moments. Hope for those moments’ keeps people together. They are a powerful, addictive drug. On September 19 2007 I met Natali at about 1pm in Simferopol Center near Silpo. That moment changed the next 15 months of my life. She was beautiful, elegant, young, intelligent, and had a great personality. Over lunch I fell in love with her. I now believe you can fall in love with someone in a moment. This is not necessarily a good thing. You do not know if you have mutual interests, whether this person is capable of loving you. We spent some time together the following weekend with her daughter and sister. For me this was one of the most wonderful times I had in my life. Natali was a bit distant and I know she was not sure about me at all. It was not love at first sight for her. I do believe that she was in another relationship with another man at that time. Most likely at her work which she left shortly after I met her. She lived about 40 miles from Simferopol in a rural farming area. I left and returned in late October back to Simferopol. I stayed in Simferopol for over a year. This was a foreign country where I did not speak and understand the language. My business was elsewhere, my family elsewhere. I did it because I loved Natali and planned to marry her. I told my family and my sons about my plans. The marriage was going to happen as far as I was concerned. Sometime during November, I proclaimed my love to her. I gave her a red rose with a note “I Love you forever” which she kept in her purse. Soon after, she also told me she loved me. sams Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 7/15/2009 2:09:20 PM   I had many precious, beautiful moments with Natali; many wonderful moments together with her daughter and sister. These are moments which will stay with me to the day I die. The best moment was always when she came to my apartment with her smile. It was like an angel visiting me. The dinners and lunches were always fantastic. I was happy to be with someone I loved. I will never forget 2007 New Years Eve when we celebrated with Natali and her sister. I remember every moment. She took me to a wedding with her family; a wonderful experience. Playing with her daughter was always fun. What I learned about Natali over time is that she is happiest at home, doing housework, gardening, looking after her flowers and plants in her house. She is happy looking after her daughter. She was happiest when she was with her sister and shopping. My frustrations started early on when she only visited me once a week for a few hours. I had come to live in Simferopol for Natali and this was all I was going to get. Even when she came to see me, I always felt she could not wait to go back home. Rarely did I feel she really wanted to be with me. I know that she had a daughter and mother to look after, but if she truly loved me, she would have tried to spend more time then a few hours a week. I noticed that when she had something of hers to do, she would come early. She never came early for me. She sometimes showed affection towards me, but mostly the affection was one way. There were rare moments of passion. Real, deep passion, between people who love each other was not there. She claimed she loved dancing, but we only went dancing a few times. The times we did dance together I always felt she was not present. She was somewhere else, in another place. We also had compatibility problems. She showed no interest in culture, theater, concerts, art galleries, religion. I told her of the gallery I used to visit all the time; she showed no interest in taking a look. She had no interest in sports, which I love to play. When I asked her to play chess or other board games, she declined. She was a stubborn woman, not willing to change. Talk with her was always small-talk. Very rarely did we have any discussion in depth. It was not a language problem because we had enough tools to overcome that problem. She was not willing to travel. The furthest she has traveled in her life is Sevastopol/Sudak. I am interested in science and going further in education. If she had an interest, she had no will. She kept suggesting we go to Sudak. But she never had the time to go with me. Last summer, the moment I left Simferopol for a couple of weeks, she ends up going to Sudak!! That I did not understand. In September she completely forgot my birthday and did not even make up for it. She did not even bring me a belated birthday cake which she could have made. During local festivals she could not even invite me to her home for a meal, even though I was alone far from my family. After one year, I was still not invited to her home. Meanwhile her sister brings her boyfriend home after a couple of months of knowing him. She has no respect for men. She told me most men are liars and cheaters. That was her experience in life. In March of 2009 while I was trawling through the internet I found Natali on internet marriage sites. Quite a shock to find the photos we had taken together and I had paid for staring back at me. From the data I could gather, it was late summer 2008 while I was in Simferopol that she posted her photos on the internet. By posting those photos which we took together and I paid for, she showed she had no respect for me. Without respect there cannot be love. Looking back, during October/November 2009, she started to come to Simferopol 3 times a week. It was unusual for her to come more then once a week. I now believe that it was not to see me; she was visiting agencies to respond to letters from men. She came to visit me so I could give her the taxi fare back home. I used to pay her about $100 a week for taxis so she could come and write to other men!! I guess the ultimate lack of respect. I also know the $100 was not spent on taxis. She took the cheap option home and pocketed the rest. Being used like this makes me cringe and I feel disgusted at myself. Who is Natali?? Natali is stubborn, selfish, and manipulative. She was a product of the Ukrainian culture of corruption. The corruption of the mind starts when you see your parents manipulating the system by having to lie and bribe. In school and university you can cheat and bribe your way to graduation. You learn to manipulate, bribe, and lie to get things done. Terrifyingly, this then translates into human relationships. Men and women manipulate and use each other. Natali cannot give herself to a man. It is not clear if she can love a man. I certainly was not the love of her life. I believed she was an Angel visiting me once a week. Somehow a real Angel was protecting me. I left Simferopol December 2008 when I had to deal with problems in my business. I kept in touch with her until March 2009. When I saw her internet postings I stopped communicating. I received one SMS from her in April which I ignored. I said goodbye to her June 2009 when I finally had to face the reality. I told her she will always be in my heart and will love her forever. This was the truth because I know I can never forget the beautiful moments of happiness I had felt. Being an optimist, I will remember the good moments. Time heals and maybe I will forget the bad. I learned to love, hold hands and walk together with a woman for the first time. I danced with a woman for the first time. I will remember the beautiful smile when I opened the apartment door. I remember the hug, feeling her warmth against me. Goodbye Natali. baron555 Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 7/15/2009 6:30:31 PM   Over lunch I fell in love with her. Love has to be mutual, Sorry your heart got broken, but you fell in lust with her not in love. By your own words you state it has to be mutual but you did not let it be mutual. She respected that you came to her city and spent some time with you and then you call her names. Seems she did not manipulate you but you manipulated her by coming to her city before you gave the relationship time to develop and determine if true, mutual love existed. Again, sorry for the loss and good luck in the future. gecko Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 7/15/2009 10:13:54 PM   You moved half way around the world to be near her and she visits you once a week? is this normal? if she loved you then you would be living together. you have to look at things through a womans eyes. In ukraine, women expect men to be men. leaving a job to go to a country where you have no friends is not what a man does. its what a desperate loser does. the only way she would have respected you is if you somehow became a successful businessman in her country. i'm curious, during those 6 nights you had free, what were you doing? sams Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 7/16/2009 4:56:08 AM   Baron She should not have been saying "I love you" and continue taking money/expensive gifts after she started looking for a new man. Is this is not manipulation ? baron555 Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 7/16/2009 11:53:37 AM   Yes Sams THAT is manipulation but you thrust that on yourself by your actions. From the get go as gecko states, there were many red flags. I saw nothing in your posts that suggested she seduced you into coming to her country and giving her gifts. You started that and she milked it. So yes her actions were not honorable but yours in the beginning were less that that also, to force yourself on her because you fell in lust and she did not. How long did you correspond with her before you met her? If none, then you met her and one month later you move to her country? That my friend is NOT the way to go about with an international relationship. sams Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 7/16/2009 12:52:08 PM   Baron and Gecko, I agree I was a pathetic sucker. Looking back, it is obvious and clear. It was not lust. Anyone who has lived in Ukraine knows that bedding beautiful, young women is easy for a wealthy, reasonable looking foreign man. I went through five stunning women before I met Natali. I own businesses with good management in place. That allowed me to stay in Ukraine for the year. I am not exacty a loser. When it came to Natali, I was a loser. I still havent figured out a rationale answer to why I was such a sucker with her. The closest explanation I have is in the first two paragraphs. The other factor is that I had gone through a divorce early 2007, so was certainly vulnerable. Carry on pounding guys...maybe you will give me the answer sams Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 7/16/2009 1:35:01 PM   Gecko, What was I doing the other 6 days? Being an entrepreuner, I looked around for business opportunities. There are clear and obvious imbalances in so many areas, it appeared that it should be easy to build successful businesses. One example is the fashion business. The fashion market is huge and margins are high. Both men and women spend a large proportion of their income on clothes. Over 90% of clothes are imported from Turkey or the Far East. Import duties are very high, almost triples the per unit cost. Ukraine has average salaries less then Turkey. The workforce is also educated and easy to train. It seems obvious that setting up a clothes factory should be highly profitable. I spent a few months investigating in detail. I have relatives in the manufacturing side of the fashion industry so it was easy to get the contacts to analyse the business case. Problem number 1 is that customs is corrupt. Although import duties are high, importers have ways of getting clothes into the country avoiding most of the tax. This negates the whole purpose of the duties which was to encourage local manufacturing. Problem number 2 is that setting up a factory has a lot of hidden costs. Again all related to corruption. Plenty of people have to be bribed to setup a manufacturing plant in Ukraine. Problem number 3 is that taxes on profits are high. Many other smaller but significant factors totally kills the business case. Another interesting one is the retail cost of meat and chicken. About the same as the west! Yet the labor costs are comparetively miniscule, agricultural land costs are very low, feed costs are low. Another story............. Went through many possibile businesses over the year. One of these may actually work, I will go back..... baron555 Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 7/16/2009 1:45:21 PM   I do not mean to pound on you and I am glad that you understand what happened. Yes she was not the most honorable woman and you are lucky you are away from that. What you need to do is to get a handle on exactly what you are seeking and what criteria and qualifications you want from a woman, regardless of where she lives. How long did you correspond with this woman before you met? If you met and fell in love in the very beginning, then you need to come to grips with this "problem" and how you will not allow that to happen in the future. And explain this statement: I went through five stunning women before I met Natali. Maybe you ought to stay away from them for a while and just correspond for a while, exchange emails, photos, talk on the phone, and learn all about them and for them to learn all about you first before you go meet. And learn to only use your upper head in this process. durak Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 7/16/2009 2:14:26 PM   sams, For what it's worth, I identify with your story. There are many differences of fact in my story, but if you boil it all down, I guess our experiences have enough in common that I don't need much imagination, to know kind of pain you have been in. I thought of these lines from a famous play: P: "I've spent two years on every street in hell." R: "That's odd, I never saw you there." I said good-bye to the Ukrainian girl of my dreams in February - I won't see her again. As time passes, I feel a growing sense of relief about this, though I miss very deeply her little son. From your story, I have some guesses about you: 1) you're an American 2) you're not very far from 50 years old 3) you're an incurable romantic 4) in some ways you are truly insightful and wise, for example "Hope for those moments’ keeps people together. They are a powerful, addictive drug." 5) in other ways you have a child-like blindness to things that most people would see immediately 6) you're a "loser" in this sense - a man who doesn't get the dynamics in romantic/sexual relationships, in the way that "successful" men do Maybe my guesses are way off... anyway, these are all true about me. When I look at what I put myself through during the past two years, one way for me to make sense of it, is that it was a learning opportunity. And I hope that I am learning from it. You wrote, "She should not have been saying "I love you" and continue taking money/expensive gifts..." Focusing on this is exactly the way NOT to learn. I can make a big list of grievances about the woman I adored, but she is who she is, and she did what she did, and I can't do f**k all about that. I CAN seek to improve myself. When I live and act as a fool, that is MY fault. If other people take some value out of my foolishness, what use it for me to blame them? For more than a year, I had a beautiful shining dream, but if love is a deep exchange between people, it doesn't exist in dreams, only in life. My brother used to drive a cab in NYC. He learned to watch the front wheels of other cars in traffic - this gave him the earliest warning of how those cars were going to move. When you moved to Ukraine and Natali made so little of her time available to you, her front wheels were not steered toward any kind of serious caring about you. This was all the information you needed, and you had this information early on. The woman I loved (to her credit, she never pretended to feel the same way about me), made it very clear by her conduct how important I was to her: somewhat, but not very. A little example: when I was back home, we would talk on the phone for maybe 5 minutes, 2 or 3 times a month. I felt sad about this, and wished for much more, but she said "I'm not a talkative person." Well, when she fell in love with a man close to her age, she wrote to me, "we talk almost every day" (he is not from Ukraine). She also would spend 50 hours on trains so she could see him for a few days, etc. etc. When a woman truly loves a man, anyone can see it. I really want a loving family life. At my age, I have little time left to make this real. If I get past the getting acquainted stage with someone, and she does not LIVE a serious caring toward me, then I'm out. For me, it has to be caring expressed by actions, not words - in other words, the front wheels, not the turn signal! beemer18 Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 7/16/2009 4:59:31 PM   Sams...thanks for having the guts to tell us your story. It is a good leaning experience for you or any guy reading this forum........now.....what the heck were you thinking man? You were never in LOVE with this girl.....you were maybe infatuated, maybe lust or maybe just on the rebound but you were clearly ready to jump at almost anything. You should be working on your self-esteem...nothing more depressing or unattractive than a guy throwing himself at a girl....a girl that never showed any interest in you...talk is cheap, actions speak louder than words. Your first post said it all....you say love should be mutual but not in your case....you say you fell in love during lunch.....you moved to crimea to marry this girl......sounds like everything was only in your head. You kept shooting yourself in the foot,how can I be sorry for what happened to you......what I am sorry for your well being......take a few steps back and take inventory...... Rag'n'Bull Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 7/17/2009 4:29:20 AM   sams. You did set yourself up for some critism with your posts! It is not possible to fall in love over an initial lunch together, it is just not possible. and, from what you say, that following, little more, than a lunch and a subsequent weekend together, whilst you admit to having been aware that she was being distant with you, that she wasn't sure about you, that it wasn't 'love' for her and your belief that she was in another relationship, you took it upon yourself to relocate to Simferopol for a year to be with her. Already this was sounding like a very one-sided affair, that you were besotted by her but she only wanted a less than serious relationship, but you 'forced' yourself upon her whereas you wanted to be 'in her face' as much as you possibly could. And, within a period of time, all the signs were there that she didn't want to be with you, you weren't even compatible, and you've admitted that she was only coming to see you because you were paying her $100 to do so! So who is in the wrong sams, her for taking what is available to her or you for making it available to her knowing full well that she was not so fond of you as you were of her? Perhaps the lesson here is that a relationship, love, has to be mutual, it cannot be forced by one party, you were never in love over that first lunch sams, I'm sure there's many a guy around that has had similar feelings during a first meeting but those feelings are not love, they are a strong attraction and/or "Wow, I really like this lady and want to know her better" but they are not love! sams Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 7/17/2009 8:22:25 AM   Gentlemen, I appreciate the comments and concern, it helps a lot. I did not see the desperation until you pointed it out. In my heart I knew many of your comments are the truth, but they solidify when they are pointed out in black and white. Durak, You should become an profiler of men searching for love in the FSU. You have me spot on. Shame we did not meet in those streets of hell, maybe we would have found the door back to life. The positive of visiting hell is that when you come back, you appreciate life, people close to you, and the beauty of this world better then ever. Better still, you will know paradise when you find it. Another insight I have gained now is that I stayed because I was hoping she would love back. Surely she has to fall in love with me if I show her unconditional love, give her everything she needs financially ? Another delusion; you cannot make someone fall in love with you. When the love isn't returned, the question "why can't she love me?" torments. What is wrong with me ? Is it my age ? Is it my appearance ? Am I inferior ????? The desperation increases as you try and answer the question. She can smell the desperation and that drives away any potential for love. My child like naiveity stems from the fact that my ex-wife was my only woman since my schooldays. Never dated anyone else. Maybe this fact also explains some of my behaviour. Including the five women before I met Natali which were basically satisfying my lust over a period of 3 weeks. Yes Baron, that was my first meeting. I created the illusion I wanted at that moment and am paying for the consequences. As you say Durak, life experiences are about learning. Spending some time in hell is definitely an eye opener!! baron555 Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 7/17/2009 10:14:26 AM   Sams, love can not be manufactured. People really don't fall in love, love, the love you and I are talking about, comes about naturally. You don't go looking for love, you look for the person who complements you and you them. You get to know each other first, see if you are friends, and then the love will come. So moving forward, as I have mentioned, first take time to make a list of all of your criteria of the woman for you. Then take time to make a critical list of all of your features, good and not so good. Then compare the two lists. Where they do not match will be where you both will have to really work to make the relationship work. Compromise, etc. Then begin to correspond with other women. Be natural, look at the profile and not the pictures. Get to know the ladies, be friendly, do not look ahead. Then when your head says that a match might be good, then you go meet. Then your hearts will tell you both if the match is good. And follow the process to the tee. Do not deviate. Learn about and look for the red flags. Be yourself, be natural, be friendly, see if she is a beautiful person on the inside. That is where her love will come from. sams Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 7/17/2009 1:33:37 PM   Gentlemen, If the love was an illusion, that what the hell is this heartache and loss I feel. That is not an illusion! baron555 Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 7/17/2009 4:29:26 PM   What you feel are true feelings but you were in love with an illusion, the illusion that the two of you were in love. As you stated, true love is mutual. Your love was not mutual, it was one-sided. You had a crush on this woman. Call it what you want but it was not true love, by your own definition. This is what you must work through. You were in love with an illusion. When you do find someone who also loves you back and you love them, then you will experience true love. It will be a very different feeling than the feeling you had when you were in love with the illusion. beemer18 Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 7/17/2009 5:39:48 PM   "Gentlemen, If the love was an illusion, that what the hell is this heartache and loss I feel. That is not an illusion!" It is called being rejected by someone that you wanted real bad. How can you lose something you never really had.........the illusion is simply in your mind and your mind is what is feeling the loss, you somehow convinced yourself of something that was never there. What was real as your feelings....not love............. Harvey Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 7/17/2009 9:42:17 PM   I seriously recommend seeing a therapist. You have the coin. It appears right now this is what you are doing. Yet you are getting opinions from just some guys on the internet. I suggest you make an appointment, print out all of this and take it to a licensed board certified therapist/psychologist. That is my only suggestion. Please, do yourself this favor. Harvey Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 7/17/2009 10:05:48 PM   after reading this again, it has to be a contrived story Adman Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 7/17/2009 11:39:52 PM   Sam For my 2 cents worth I think what you are talking about is romantic love. This is the type of love that all the novelists write about, the Romeo and Juliet love. This love comes almost instantly or within a very short time. It is a madness, similar to taking drugs, It leads us to do all those stupid things but is also tremendously exciting. Your problem as I see it is that it was misdirected towards someone that didn’t feel the same way. My concern now is about whether you can let go of this imagine her. To continue to feel this way about her could easily drag down a future relation with another woman. It is often what we refer to as baggage when entering another relationship. How you are supposed to let go of the feelings for, I don’t know. Your Reply: Your name:   New Registration Password:   Forgot password?   refresh Code:   Russian brides > Main Forum > A Goodbye to my Ukrainian girl Part 1
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