There are many different charts with figures on this site. You have to look through and compare the data and not all data is translated into English. And I have no reason to tell lies as there is no profit for me in it.
I keep saying that the foreigners compete for Ukrainian women, and these are Ukrainian women who choose. And that's the truth.
Ben, I did not see them as for sale. I remember one woman was dancing by herself. A fat old guy, well dressed, went to the dance floor and started dancing with her, or in front of her. She ignored him. I did not see any "sale" transaction. I did not see any woman going home with a man. I can only remember one other man there with a date, and I didn't see him when we walked out. My gf did talk to some of them afterwards. She told me of one who told her she wished she could get a man like me.
If you want to look for it, it was near the "NOKIA" sign. I think it had three floors. There was a casino on the same floor. The dealers looked ready for players. There were about five of them, standing in front of the game table. There were no gamblers. The disco floor had a stage. The show at that time were men, dressed as women, singing. My gf talked briefly with one of the patrons. He had curly hair, and looked like like a light skinned Pacific Islander. She told me later on that he was on TV. Surely enough, the next day, she showed me the TV show he was in. He was one of the judges in a variety show.
Mr. Bond. I have not called you a liar. I just want to know where you got the data. Surveys can be tricky. Let me give you an example.
One of the discussions here is that statistically, a big age difference in choosing a wife will not work. I once came up with another survey that said marrying under the age of 26 also will not work. The reason is before that age, one usually is still trying to esblish his identity.
I maintain that if one states that a big difference in age will statistically not work and cites the surveys, there should more than one survey done to see what the real reason is. One survey should be if the man is under 26, another if the woman is under 26, another if they are both over 26 and another if they are both under 26.
In the case of your example Mr Bond, you can take randomly a survey and come to that conclusion, but were all the age groups represented? Was the survey done with all or most of Ukraine represented? What was the question asked? Are you looking to marry overseas? Does that mean if they say yes, they will refuse marriage, if asked to a local? How about those who said no? Will they refuse a foreigner?
OK. It is in the website you cited. Perhaps I made this too complicated.
1. I don't worry too much about the statistics, I only need one woman. Really. What the other millions are doing, is not my focus.
2. I have written before on this forum, there is a PERCEPTION that seems to be common among FSU women of a big gender imbalance. I have heard women here (writing from Kyiv at the moment) with a straight face cite ratios of women to men that, if you thought about it for a minute, are just impossible. But women's attitudes toward the problem of finding a mate will be determined by their perceptions, NOT the objective facts.
3. FSU (and Ukraine in particular) is not the West. In the US, gender ratios are fairly consistent from region to region. But in Ukraine, there are huge demographic shifts taking place, especially people leaving rural areas and small towns for the bigger cities. Genders can, and I believe in this case are, making these relocations at different rates (this having some connection with adolescent attitudes toward education, and employment opportunities and preferences which can vary a lot between men and women). So in some places (e.g., Kyiv) gender ratios may be very different from the country as a whole, and quite possibly in the opposite direction.
4. The table that Armin kindly quoted, shows some interesting relationships. For example, on the average women marry men about 2 years their senior, in the US and, I have read somewhere, also in Ukraine. Personally, I'm hoping to find a mate whose age is around 33. Making a pretty gross simplification, let's compare using the "average" age difference: from the table, there are 340,636 women aged 33, and 315,007 men of the "ideal" age to be their husbands, making a gap of more than 25,000. This "two-year gap" is more than 20,000 for 32 year old women.
5. Suppose, for the sake of argument, that single mothers are considered less desirable by eligible bachelors, and for that reason will accept a larger age difference (I don't have any data source on this, it's just a suppose). This doesn't help the gender gap any, and with increasing age differences, makes it worse.
6. I have a very unscientific impression (just anecdotal) that in the 30s to 40s age group, FSU men were more likely than women to "fall off the cliff" (behaviorally, mentally, economically) through alcoholism, psychological instability, etc. If this is true - and of course, most women want to marry a man who can take care of and protect them - and you could adjust the population figures to remove those unsuitable for marriage, this might greatly magnify these imbalances.
So in conclusion, the available data might be consistent with hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian women in their 30s whose marriage prospects are pretty sketchy. Even by ages 28 and 29, the numbers are not favorable. None of this would apply to women in their early to mid 20s ... but they aren't who I'm seeking.
currently there is a debate in america whether or not to ask illigal aliens if they are illegal aliens in the upcoming census. can you imagine how screwed up is the mentallity behind all of this???
and that is because the liberals wish to count these folks.... never mind
point is that statistics and census numbers do not always reflect the reality of the situation. many polsters skew the numbers in the favor of their own opinion. with all of the corruption I have read about just on this forum - and it is backed up elsewhere - can you believe any statistics offered by an individual regarding a topic of their own interest? I can hardly say yes to that myself. but I do not know numbers, I only know human nature. regardless of statistical evidence or percentages, if you are a keen person you will meet another keen person. if you are just some schuck hoping to get lucky with some girl in another land -- you are just a schmuck. if you are hoping to get lucky in russian love because you suck at love in your own land, then you are truly misguided. do not expect to do better than you would in your own neighborhood if you are serious about having a partner with mutual respect and integrity. I pity the person who thinks they will elevate themself in the hopes of finding a hot young girl to have as a wife. only to discover later... ???
durak, I just read your post - not there when I typed my nonsense.
outstanding perspective! and of course that is why just comparing numbers does not amount to much on the reality scale of things. numbers are just numbers. reality is, well, reality. insert caps where needed.
Mr. Bondd, I am having a hard time believing your numbers. If this was told to me before I started looking for an FSU wife, I wouldn't have started. I read and believed the opposite. I would not be out to compete for women if there was not enough women for every man in the FSU, certainly not all the way to Europe, even if the women were more in my age group.
I did look at the site you cited. The numbers were similar to the CIA site, except for about 500,000 - total population. The site is down now, but I believe the difference was resident population and population. I assume that meant they were counting 500,000 people overseas who are still Ukrainian citizens. I did not see where the age groups are broken down as you did, but I assume those were what you say are your own survey or where it was not translated.
Yet, your numbers can't be correct, if the CIA numbers are, unless there is a good explanation. If I had to choose between your numbers and the CIA numbers and yours, I would choose the CIA numbers.
You acknowledged that the numbers from the CIA website were correct. It has a total of 32,142,100 people ages 15-64. Your numbers have a total of 14,583,074 (7,277,548 + 7,305,546) people ages 20-40. The CIA website has 50 ages represented, your numbers 21 ages. Only five ages (15-19) represented by the CIA numbers are younger and 24 ages (41-64) are older. The older ages have less population than the younger ages. 50 is 2.38095 times 21. Therefore, if we multiply your total of 14,583,074 by 2.38095, then we should get a number lower than the CIA numbers. The product to that is 34,721,605. It is 2,579,505 more.
Your numbers are grossly overstated unless there is a good explanation to this. I welcome anyone to prove me wrong here. Sometimes, I am.
Sorry, Mr. Bondd. I've been spending some time trying to prove you wrong. After I wrote this out and re-read it, I decided my logic is flawed. The product should be higher, not lower since your data is mostly of the younger ages.
Here is the ref, sorry it's only in Ukrainian and it's opened only with Internet Explorer browser
http://stat6.stat.lviv.ua/PXWEB2007/Dialog/varval.asp?ma=000_0204&ti =0204%2E+%D0%EE%E7%EF%EE%E4%B3%EB+%EF%EE%F1%F2%B3%E9%ED%EE%E3%EE+%ED%E0%F1%E5%EB %E5%ED%ED%FF+%E7%E0+%F1%F2%E0%F2%F2%FE%2C+%EE%EA%F0%E5%EC%E8%EC%E8+%E2%B3%EA%EE% E2%E8%EC%E8+%E3%F0%F3%EF%E0%EC%E8+%F2%E0+%F2%E8%EF%EE%EC+%EF%EE%F1%E5%EB%E5%ED%F C&path=../Database/POPULATION/1/02/&lang=1
And another thing to say,no matter if there are 1 million or 1 thousand women who want to marry a foreigner in Ukraine. A real man will get what he wants. He has just to know how.
I think the numbers are meaningless. The collective experience of those of on here who have travelled to FSU countries allows readers to construct a fairly accurate picture of the situation.
Fundamentally all dating/marriage everywhere is driven by the same economic and psychological factors. To pick a few ..
* everyone is out to strike the best "deal" they can (predominantly youth/looks for men and wealth for women).
* people raise/lower their standards depending on the locally available pool of prospects.
* very small gender imbalances have a disproportionate affect on perceived availability of prospects and hence mating behaviour.
Thanks for the numbers, Mr Bondd. Sorry about the crack about the CIA. I made the decision to write that before I compared the numbers and as I stated, they are similar.
Yes, a man or anyone can get what they want, if that is really what they want, but he also has to know the facts and therefore determine if his efforts is worth it. I have not given up on my woman. I am far from that. Yet, I am looking to see if it will be worth it to try again in the FSU. Yes, numbers do matter. Where would you go for victory, where the opposition is weak or strong, if you can get the same results?
I do have two questions, Mr. Bondd. Mr. Durak says that as they get older, FSU women tend to fall of the cliff economically through alcoholism and their living habits. Do your findings support that? Another question is why are there more women than men in their twenties than men? Surely, it is not for the same reason.
To clarify: It seems that you misread my previous post. I wrote that more men than women ... fell off the cliff. Again, this is not scientific (I haven't tried to research this). But here they speak of the "lost generation" (more or less, those now in their 30s and 40s). It seems that women were more likely to get lost in the sense of being completely absorbed in making a living -- thus giving up their personal lives; but SOME men under the same stresses became very low-functioning -- and thus, not good husband material.
So my thinking was, if even 1% more of men than women got lost in drug abuse, street crime/prison, or mental illness, compared to women ... this would increase the imbalance (women who can't find a suitable man) by several thousand, for each year of age.
Sorry. I was in a hurry this morning. This is what my post should have said.
"I do have two questions, Mr. Bondd. Mr. Durak says that as they get older, FSU MEN tend to fall of the cliff economically through alcoholism and their living habits. Do your findings support that? Another question is why are there more women than men in their twenties than men? Surely, it is not for the same reason."
rb, One thing that could add to confusion - the first population chart showed women in the first column and men in the second - the second chart is men first, women second. In the 20s, the charts show men outnumbering women. This is normal, because significantly more live births are boys than girls.
At age 30, the genders are almost exactly even in Ukraine. Above age 30, there are progressively more women than men - primarily due to terrible death rates for men (compared to Western countries) in both Russia and Ukraine.
The point that I have raised, about men becoming absolutely unsuitable for marriage in the minds of most women, wouldn't necessarily show up in these tables. They are still alive, and can possibly be counted by a thorough census. But they are "subtracted" from the marriage pool.
Here's an example: Ukraine has about 140,000 adult prisoners (just looked this up), less than 9,000 of them women, leaving about 130,000 men. Taking the difference, about 120,000 men are "subtracted" from the potential-good-husband pool SIMPLY BY BEING LOCKED UP AT ANY GIVEN MOMENT. If you consider that most women don't want to marry an ex-con either, this could add several hundred thousands to the "eligible man deficit."
But being a not very successful crook, is only one way to fall off the cliff. Consider those who are chronic drunks (a very serious disease in FSU); compulsively promiscuous; wasting their lives in "shooting galleries" injecting drugs; infected with HIV from the drug abuse. Women can and do all of these things, but probably in each case, there are a lot more men. In each category, the excess of men over women adds to the deficit. You guys can make your own guesses, but if you could measure it all, and it turned out to be a million men or more -- even two million, I wouldn't be shocked.
On top of that, there are otherwise upstanding men who never finished their education (boys perhaps being more prone to drop out than girls) who may be stuck in a lifetime of menial labor. In the US, you can make a decent living hauling garbage ... in Ukraine, bottom of the barrel jobs pay sh*t. The kind of women I look at on the websites are mostly really well educated and accomplished. It's amazingly common to see 2 graduate degrees! They want a man who at least comes CLOSE to their level. So here's ANOTHER cause of "eligible man deficit."
For any who didn't read or don't remember a post I made once on another thread, I know personally of two young women in Kyiv, both single mothers of young boys, close to 30 years age, who found foreign men through dating websites. Neither of them was looking for a US green card, or anything like that. They are both well educated, one really cute, the other could easily pass for a fashion model. They both believed THAT THERE WAS NO HOPE OF FINDING A HUSBAND IN UKRAINE. They are not stupid, and they must have tried... they just couldn't find a suitable man. This is not hype or hysteria, this is experience. Now, neither of them found a Western man: one of the men is from Russia, the other from another former communist bloc country. Of course, both are fluent Russian speakers. The are also highly educated, and close to the women's age. So I'm not saying that they settled for an old bald guy like me. What I am saying, is that they became absolutely discouraged about finding a good husband in Ukraine. Draw your own conclusions.
One correction, about the two Kyiv girls... one of them found her man by a personal connection, but only AFTER she had given up looking in Ukraine, and had tried a dating website; the other one found her man through a Russian-language dating site.
If women were given the choice they'd rather have a guy from there own country.
This simple fact was from the mouth of more than a few that I knew. IMO this would be the same for all if the truth be told.
You'd have to be a real prize for them to drop everything, including their chance of a mate from their own place, for them to make the deal with you.
statistics are meaningless. are we looking for women or are we looking for attractive women. how many attractive women in Ukraine are willing to give up their friends and families and live in another country? now how many men are vying for their attention.
rb, if you govern your selections by statistics, get married to an ugly woman. there is 100% success rate!
Thanks, Mr. Durak. Interesting information. Looking at the numbers and the amount of women on website, one would question why FSU women would look outside of their country for mates. Reading this website, you might come to the conclusion that a great majority of them are not serious or are scammers. You came up with good reasons.
I started this venture when I had a long dry spell of the women in my surroundings who I would consider marrying. That is no longer the case. Yet, since I am committed with the lady in Kerch, all I am doing is making eyes at these women.
Those who do not like statistics do not understand it or are lousy in math. It never turns out 100%, especially where humans are concerned. Gecko, no matter how handsome or perfect you are, if you asked 100 ugly women to marry you, at least 5 will say no. I would bet even 20. Even the best basketball or football team will lose once in a while. We all live by statistics. Would you walk in a bad neighborhood? Of course not. Statistics show you might get hurt. Would you hire a non college graduate for a professional position? No. Statistics show college graduates will do a better job.
I hate to put the spanner in the works guys. But if they are moving to the US or western Europe due to the fact that the men treat them as ladies, unlike as you say their FSU counterparts. What happens when they get used to their new environment and find that a lot of guys now treat them with respect and desire them. also guys that are a lot closer to her age?