It is apparently said amongst con artists in the west, that it is only possible to 'scam' someone who is themselves on the take in some way. My question here is to ask wether (if it's true) it's the same for FSU 'relationship scammers'. This could include letter-creating agencies (wether or not the girl exists), overcharging agencies making money on you dating a genuine girl, or gold digging 'good time girls'.
Does some culpability lie with a western 'mark' for the proliferation of the FSU scammers who cheat them?
Sure, all the folks who fall for these schemes. There are plenty of agencies out there that do not charge for every letter, or will not allow a woman to give the man an email or phone number. They just have to do their homework and go only to those agencies.
That's what I did. It worked for me. Luck does increase with hard work.
LUCK : A friend was keeping me up to date with his hunt. Almost every day he would go to his stand. After weeks he finally bagged a nice 8 pointer. He said to me, "I finally got lucky." I said to him, "Luck comes with hard work and preparation my friend." Same applies for trying to find a woman.
Muzzy you know darn well that a good number of gents think it is easy pickings and that all of these catalogues of hot women mean they can just sign up get one. As Olga always says, "Why pay per letter?" etc.
My reply is that yes, the guys that fall for many of the 'scams' are culpable. And as long as these guys continue to fall for it and also that there are just guys looking to have some fun, there will always be a business for it.
I'm sorry, I do not understand your comments at all. Baron555, do you mean to say that we should join those agencies that do not allow the woman to give any communication info like email, phone etc ? how do we talk to her, assess her voice quality, english knowledge, or know if she is real then ? how do we do our homework on her before going to all the time and expense to visit her in her country ? I think those agencies that edit her letters are not useful, and normally they charge by letter too. I think we should all avoid those agencies that charge by letter (charging per contact is OK, with any no. of letters allowed WITH NO EDITING BY AGENCY). I would always go by such an agency ... are you guys real, or put on this site for PR relations with the real customers ?? I ask because your posts have no relation to reality or the true interests of a man looking for a partner.
LET ME TELL ALL OF YOU, THE GUYS WHO FALL FOR THE SCAMS ARE WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE (inexperienced) about SCAMMERS AND INTERNET SCAMS. NOTHING ELSE. THEY ARE NOT CULPABLE. THEY WILL GET EXPERIENCED IN TIME, LEARN HOW TO IDENTIFY SCAMMERS, AND HOW TO REFER TO ANTI-SCAM DATA BASES BY THEMSELVES OR USE SOME SCAM DETECTIVE ACCOUNT (A useful investment, if you do not know much about how serious and how many the scammers and how dangerous the scammers are on the internet. ). On the internet it is very difficult to verify if the person you write to exists or not.. made more difficult if the agency edits your letters. you should see her video, intent cam, chat with her, speak on phone, and also with her mum and relations to confirm her existence, and generally know more about her, and such agencies editing the letters do more harm than good since they prevent all this. A friend of mine went to a city in middle of Siberia, to meet a scammer who never existed or turned, and he lost some genuine ladies. You see, the scam ladies have the best photos.
The Scammers always tell the man who falls for their line or for them is to blame, because they assuage their conscience in this manner ... they feel like low life, like worms, for cheating and telling lies in matters of the heart to many men. they try to restore their false dignity by telling their prey is foolish. there would be no need for the justice system or police stations if this were true that the fallen guy was responsible for his fall and for listening to a criminal who posed as a genuine person by telling lies.
REGARDS.
RajGoldwin
just put my name in google and see my posts elsewhere on the internet, you will see some real nice posts and forums where nice people give their genuine experiences.
If I understand Muzzy correctly, the details of this comes to the root of what I have been in trouble for with others guys on the forum. We are all spending money to enable a relationship. A relationship is something that cannot be bought. One must learn to separate the two. If the relationship does not work out, one cannot say, "I've been scammed," unless he was trying to buy the relationship.
No Mike stay away from agencies that force you to use their letter writing service to communicate with the ladies, and charge for each letter.
Also any agency that will not allow the lady to give you her personal email or phone number or address, should also be avoided.
Finally many agencies want to make all the arrangements only for you when you want to travel and see the lady. The good agencies will not force you to do this.
And you wrote:
"? how do we talk to her, assess her voice quality, english knowledge, or know if she is real then ? how do we do our homework on her before going to all the time and expense to visit her in her country ?"
You call her on the phone. You write emails and letters. You Skype with her. You both send photos back and forth of yourselves in everyday situations. You ask questions. You assess the state of your correspondence.
You talk to her on the phone. You ask her how well is her English. You both use the free online translation software. You learn some of her language.
But... the important part = You two do it by yourselves. No agency help.
This is bound to be a controversial topic. As usual, I can see more than one side, so my answer to muzzy's question is, "no, and yes."
"No," because people who are kind and pure of heart are often trusting, more likely to assume that people mean what they say. So an honest many can be an easy "mark" for a swindler. Unfortunately, it is necessary to "go to the dark side" and learn something about how crooks think, in order to make a judgment about whatever may be on offer.
When it comes to practical matters of searching for a mate in the FSU (like pay-per-letter agencies, etc.), I think that an honest man can be cheated.
But when I step back and look at the big picture, my answer to muzzy's question is "yes," we do share plenty of responsibility for scams. If a man is honest with himself - and I mean deeply honest - then he will naturally tend to "steer clear" of the barracudas. This isn't a guarantee, but I think it works most of the time.
The kind of honesty I'm talking about is who we are, what we want from life, and what are we willing to give up, in order to get what we want. The kind of honesty that acknowledges strengths and weaknesses together.
I suspect that some of the men who come away bitter, because they spent a lot of money and came away only with some sex or other entertainment -- if they look a long look in the mirror -- will see that they weren't ready for marriage, and what they got was really what they were prepared for.
A personal illustration: probably my most dangerous lie to myself, is that I'm not worth much (and I don't mean financially). I believed this most of my life. When I think this way, I'm an easy target for vampires. I spent irreplaceable time, and some good money as well, on a "shopping girl" in Kyiv. In my reasoning mind, I knew from the first minute that she was no good for me, but with the part of my mind that was intoxicated by her charms, I pretended for a while that maybe she cared about me a little, or that maybe she would eventually.
But I've been telling myself, and the world, that I'm searching for the woman who will create a family with me, who will make a good wife and mother. My wasting time with the shopping girl was completely inconsistent with my stated goal, so I certainly wasn't being true to myself.
I think that even the "slow students" here (I include myself) can smell when something is too good to be true, or doesn't feel right in some other way. If I keep my eyes wide open, and focused on the prize -- if I sail my ship steadily in one direction -- I expect that I will soon enough see who truly wants to sail in my direction, and who does not.
On a practical level, I've gotten very direct. In the beginning stages of making contact, I'm now asking women, "do you want to have (another) child?" It's not very romantic, but life is short, and I don't have time to spare for "relationships" that won't take me toward my goal. There'll be plenty of time for romance later.
Okay, I'll expound on my reasoning a little. I was going to explain myself before, but I thought I'd collect other people's opinions a little first.
The whole "can't con an honest man" refers to the principle motivation for a 'mark' being that he or she thinks they're getting something they otherwise couldn't, or shouldn't. This allows a 'now or never' pressure to be placed on someone, leading them to override reason and rational thought. Often, the con artist leads the mark to believe that the mark is conning them, getting something they don't deserve (as long as they can get away with it by parting with their money quickly).
Given that this is such a regular theme in so many cons, I wondered if it translated 'over there', and wether it was a facet of these relationship scams.
So far, I'm leaning towards 'yes'. Although there's no absolutes, and every situation is different, I think it's obvious that many men 'come a cropper' because they go straight for the (other-topic-affore-mentioned) "20-something-glamour-photo" types. It seems that the "this girls way out of my league but says she loves me after 3 letters" is experiencing the same thing as the bloke who agrees to buy a "$3,000,000 lottery ticket of this poor foreign guy who just doesn't realise its true value" for $2,000. They think their ship's come in, and they have to rush to seal the deal before whoever they're buying from/dating (interchangeable terms in this instance) realises the truth.
Parting with your cash in a hurry to get something you otherwise don't think you'd be able to get, seems to be the very motivation these scammers are counting on. As long as you never feel pressured to do such a thing, surely the likeliness of falling prey to a scammer reduces significantly.
Muzzy! con men have been around since the ice ages. it is human nature to try to get ahead by some means. not all people are cons. but it is a fact of life that there will always b someone out there who will take advantage of someone in the manner as you describe.
Think of it this way. A few young women are on a dating site for one reason or another a few years ago. Way back before time. And a fresh young lady is getting attention and decides to find out how much the guy really loved her. So for some reason or another he sends her money to help her get by in her impoverished lifestyle because he wants her to be comfortable while they wait to be together.
Hmmmmmm? she thinks. She tells her girlfriends that some guy from bumfuuk egypt has sent her money because he cares for her. Her friends think, 'Hmmmmmmmm?' I wonder if I can find a man to send me money. And it snowballs. It probably started as an innocent remark many years ago. Now it is big business to take money from unsuspecting males as they continue for the ultimate quest. A steady supply of pssssy. Or for whatever the reason may be. I'm here and I have my reason. durak states his reason. Some may be looking to just get laid. Others want a true partnership with a woman. It doesn't matter. The fact is that many years ago someone figured out that a man will send her money, pay to just be able to correspond with and the list goes on... And just as advertising works - and it does - having hot young girls is advertisement. You don't see fat scrumppy women in car ads do you? NO! Because good looks sell. And after all, it is a business. Think of the owners of these agencies as used car salesmen in checkered sport coats and white shoes!
or how about this from a different region, She my sista, she want a husband, she virgin, she love you long time... every few weeks they turn into virgins all over again.
the used car salesman: this little beauty was owned by an old lady that only went to church and the market. never went over 35 mph(50 kph)and always had it in for service. only has 15000 miles (I don't know how they ran back the oddometer exactly to 15000).
use whatever example you want. fact is they are out there. and you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure it out. I wonder about that rocket scientist from houston a few year ago that went to florida ...
Well some of the scams are quite difficult to avoid completely. For example its very difficult to be totally sure that if you meet a lady with interpreter, that they arn't splitting the money. Yes you can arrange an interpreter independently but that's a lot of hassle sometimes especially for a "newbie".
False travel expense claims is another one: of course you can demand to see receipts but that might be insulting to someone who is genuine. Sometime its difficult to know how paranoid to be :-).
In general I take the view that dishonesty is not acceptable and it doesn't matter gullible the "mark" is - the fault is still with perpetrator at the end of the day. Its easy to say that some fat old bloke shooting way out his league for a 20 YO model deserves to be scammed but he doesn't because being delusional is not the same as being dishonest and even delusional people don't "deserve" to be scammed.
the problem is really this: there may be tens of thousands (more??) of blokes who have no idea what goes on with many of these dating sites. probably more than a few are innocent seekers and think that they can find a (insert your adjectives)lady thinking they are desparate. many may be taken intillay and are embarrassed about it, keep quiet and never "..do that again." some persist thinking they found a bad egg or whatever. and some are just completely clueless. and then there are the ones who do their best with knowledge that there are 'scammmers' out there and get taken anyway.
the real problem is that this cannot be regulated or policed. if this was in America these places would be shut down and prosecuted. and they would be exposed on the nightly news. but it ain't folks.
solution: notify every male in the entire world the news that this version of grifting is going on everyday. that's impossible. they say, 'ignorance is bliss.' I don't know who 'they' are but it has a trueism about it.
I am sure there would be some documentary news type show that would love this topic. but how many men would be willing to share with the nation 1) that they are looking for a woman in another country and have to deal with the stigma attached to it, 2) they have been taken for money (scammed) while doing it? my sister still gives me grief that I am doing this. even after she acknowledged my reasons. so I imagine there aren't many from your neighborhood who are on your side. and if you do get taken they say good for you. let's face it, the desire to be with a woman is greater than anything. well for normal men anyway. and as long as they (scammers) can get away with it they will. let's just hope the men wise up quickly.
Geez you have a whole theory of dating FSU women on the Internet... This is really a little scary, why not just relax if the desire is unbearable to handle (the statement alone is a red flag) why not try to date local women?
Anyways, it is good to be as healthily paranoid about on-line dating as you one could not only for the sake of the oxymoron but for the sheer fact that you'll probably be scammed if you're not.
I had friends that worked for a dating agency that you describe here and they told me they wrote all letter for those ladies who actually did want to meet a decent foreign man and change their lives but already having Russian lives made them not want to come to the agency 2 - 3 times a week to answer a giant load of correspondence. I'd say no pain, no gain, but you're dealing with old FSU school ladies and they want it to be game with no pain. Boo hoo.
Anyways, it is good to be as healthily paranoid about on-line dating as you one could not only for the sake of the oxymoron but for the sheer fact that you'll probably be scammed if you're not.
marylin! I tried to decipher your message. But I actually think we agree. It is interesting that many do not have internet at home and must travel to an internet cafe or rely on an 'agency' for correspondace. It is what it is. I will vouche for that statement.
btw I just spoke with my lady from $%%&&$ and she has planned a trip that includes alpine skiing, hiking and visiting hot springs and cave diving... I hope I am not left in a cave in Russia!
New Years eve in Russia! then visit where the 1014 olympics will be held... ski hike and explore caves...
Just bought a Tee for my fiance that has a giant red Ghosts Busters circle with a confused bear in it that says 'I've been to Russia. There're no bears!' so you'd probably survive here and even be surprised at local prices. I just had my share of cultural shock today (embarrassing since I was born here) seeing that I couldn't find a purse cheaper than $200 in a local mall.
But those women who look great and sound great but you can't contact them whatsoever and there's an excuse in their letters.. scam. And even if it was true, it would still be odd because those ladies do not probably speak a bit of the language and your phone date would be a disaster.
funny dansing -- we just hung up and we were looking at the sites... Southern Caucasus region. There are several Russian tour sites that mention this cave. But of course, I would feel at home hiking in the winter anywhere. Done it my entire life. Not sure of your concern unless it was just a funny.
The one issue discussed was registration of tourist visa. maybe Marylin can offer something. I will land Dec 30. Register at local registry using her address. But she has mapped out a travel tour for us. 2 days home, 2 days here, three days there, two days here, and then back 'home' for a couple days and to catch plane back.
marylin, what do you know about visitors hopping around? I know that if I 'stay' anywhere for three days I must register. But if I am just sneaking around the country side visiting different places would the local gestapo get paranoid about it. I can always use the "day trip" excuse. Any thoughts on this?
btw dansing -- no cave diving -- just exploring a cave that is probably over visited by tourists and set up for such a visit -- electric lights etc. there is a cool pool and river about 600 m down but not real spelunking. but hopefully in the future. I found a woman who digs this shit. Same shit I dig.
I know durak has much experience travelling in Russia but I wonder if anyone else has had experience and how they dealt with hopping from place to place. I still have this television mentallity of what it is like there. And of course she is not sure how strict it will be. Anyone?
Well, first of all, it's true_nerd, not Norma Jean or Marylin or anything else. It's the same way you see those little Latin symbols in black at my avatar, alright?
No clue about registering a foreigner around, I'm from a regional town and I work in Moscow and I'm not registered here the right way myself so I can't help you on this one.
It's kinda funny that you call it 'hopping' considering the millage you'll have to 'hop' to get from one place to another, so I'd call it a 'long and dim train dragging' but whatever.
Welcome to Russia and don't forget to bring a lot of money. Moscow will rip you off.
Devilmaycare - I'm not for one minute suggesting that the scammers aren't responsible for their actions, or that such actions can ever be condoned.
Julian - you're right that cons have been around since the year dot, and there are no doubt lots of plausible explanations as to how they come about. This isn't about the mentality of the scammer, but of the victim.
My point is merely to ask how far the victim goes in allowing the scam to happen. Unlike other forms of theft, money in a scam isn't taken by force. It's given willingly, often in the belief of getting a justifiable return. The mechanics of it go that the greater the perceived reward, the more of a risk (and the more money given) will be acceptable.
I've often read advice on here for a man to 'use his upper head'. Sound advice which begs the kind of the question I'm asking. As RB says, it's hard to be conned out of money in a relationship unless one is allowing money to be part of the relationship. In normal circumstances, we'd ask why a woman wants money, or why she's insistent on us booking THAT apartment, or using THAT agency, or THAT interpreter. If we fail to do that - to think as rationally as we otherwise would - then we're putting ourselves into that position of vulnerability. Aren't we?
I take Durak's point about this being a learning curve, and while pay-per-letter can certainly happen to an honest man, I think that the less of a hurry someone is in, the more 'homework' (baronism) he will do, and the less chance he has to fall for such things. Not that anyone's perfect, of course.
Two small caveats:
1. I've been talking here about men having 'unrealistic' desires that tempt them into stupidity, but I'm not classing age as the per-se barrier. One cannot say that an older man can't get a younger woman without denying the existence of The Heff :P
2: true_nerd asks about dating local women instead. This assumes that relationship scams are unique to FSU dating, which ignores the fact that the Pre-Nup is as American as the regularity of 'relationships' that caused them to come into existence.