I've recently taken the plunge into trying to find a nice lady via Fiance's site. My previous on-line dating experience was with sites such as E-harmony and Plenty of Fish. My dating efforts with local and regional women has met with very limited success.
I keep trying to balance my cynicism with a genuine belief that something good could come of this foray. You'll have to forgive me if my questions seem naive or obvious; just bear with me.
Most of these ladies are very attractive. These ladies are very friendly and respond positively to every letter I send. This is somewhat unusual for me. Ladies that look like this usually don't respond on other local sites. I should mention that I have fairly realistic expectations. I'm not looking (or hoping) to land some 25 year old hottie. I'm looking for a lady close to my age (40) who is cute, but not a knock out Barbie doll type. Therefore, the cynic in me asks:
Are most of these ladies strongly motivated to leave the FSU and emigrate to the western democracies? If not, then what's wrong with the local men in these ladies' communities? To put it bluntly, are they just using the poor lonely shmucks like me to get over here and start a new life, preferably without their all too willing host?
Most of the profiles just seem too good to be true. So much of the respective profiles' content is so similar, it's as if the same template is always used, with only minor details being changed in each profile.
When I ask questions, most are answered very matter-of-factly, and some are missed completely. Other times, the response consists of a novel like explanation of her views of love and trust, etc, which is something I hadn't asked her in the first place.
It just seems like some of the answers are just 'too perfect'. Some responses return in (near) perfect English, while others are cobbled together sentence fragments which require a couple of readings to get the gist of what she's trying to communicate. Do some ladies not use the translation services of the agency?
Another point, I had a lady tell me how much she enjoys travelling. She hinted (with very little subtelty) that I should invite her to travel with me, saying she would enjoy that very much. This, after we exchanged a grand total of three letters!
Are these women for real, or am I just too damn cynical and expecting the worst? My apology if I'm stating what may be obvious to most of you, but I wouldn't mind some feedback regardless.
Probably, every guy who has been searching for a while has strong opinions about these questions -- and some of those opinions will disagree with each other. My take:
1. There are no easy answers, you will find the whole range of human complexity, and ambiguity.
2. Your respondents will have very many motives, including:
* making an easy dollar (or better, a few hundred, or even a few thousand)
* curiosity: what kind of response will this profile get?
* looking for romance
* entertainment (in person, when a man comes to visit)
* looking for a good husband & father to children
* desire for better economic opportunity
* enthusiasm for a particular country, region, culture, etc.
* wanting to escape hard and dreary circumstances
* entertainment (letter writing as a hobby)
* practicing English skills
* wanting to relocate to a particular country because relatives already live there
And because people aren't comic-book characters, some will have several different motives. For example, a "good time girl" who is happy to have a foreign man spend hundreds of dollars entertaining her, may also be hoping that one of those men will turn out to be the one she has been dreaming of.
3. If you want to have a loving marriage and perhaps start a family, then a big percentage of respondents have motives that probably aren't good for your plan. For most agencies or websites, the "rotten apples" will be the great majority. For a few, the majority will match better what you have in mind.
4. The problem of scammers (and various other insincere women, or even crooked men posing as women) has been discussed here many, many times. Most of the experienced men have some "rules of thumb". In my opinion, rules are of limited use, because there can be a big overlap between what a sincere woman would do (depending on circumstances) and what scammers usually do -- for this reason, it is best to keep your wits about you, and at the same time an open mind. Mainly, learn as much as you can about them, ask serious questions (like, "why are you looking to other countries, in order to meet a man?", and use your intuition and commonsense. I think we get most in trouble when we let our wishes make us deaf to that voice that says, "something here don't seem right."
5. Because you're young (compared to me, my lad), and seem to have a reasonable age difference in mind, I expect you will get a good response rate from sincere women. Women get very many contacts from old-timers like me, so younger men like yourself are in demand.
6. The fluency of English can vary a lot, for many reasons. A scammer may have a few form letters he or she always uses, which might be in very good, or quite broken English. Some women just have amazingly good English (but usually will make a few telltale grammar mistakes). Some women have enough English that with their dictionary and online translation, they can do a good job. Some women have a friend who acts as her expert interpreter. Agencies often have their own interpreters, which is a topic of its own. I recently had some letters from a very neat gal (unfortunately, lost contact) whose written English was very good, but with many bad spellings -- this told me she wasn't using a machine translator, but knew English well enough to compose the sentences without looking at any reference.
7. For me, "cookie-cutter" profiles, especially with very brief or very generic written parts, are a warning sign of insincerity. But sometimes women with sincere intentions don't take the time to write a detailed profile, and publish a cookie-cutter profile! But it seems to me that scammers rarely take the trouble to put lots of information on the profiles: they are lazy, as well has crooked.
8. If a woman seems very interested, or proposes meeting (or worse, traveling together like your example) very early in your communication, that is a big warning sign, but again is not proof of insincerity. But if she professes love before you have met, that is a very bad sign.
9. One place where everyone agrees: if she asks for money or a valuable gift before you meet, pull the plug instantly. There is no gray area about this. A recent topic discussed paying her travel expenses for a first meeting, which I have done myself -- but not in way that she could cancel out and cash in the ticket.
Because of your age, if you have the ingredients to make a good husband, and you are willing to put a LOT of time and really serious money into the search -- and to go down a few dead-end streets and one or two small heart tremors, my bet is that you have a good chance to make a real marriage.
"what's wrong with the local men in these ladies' communities?" -- This question has been argued in this forum many times. There are big differences of opinion. I think that for attractive educated women up to 26 or so, finding a local man who looks like good husband material isn't a big problem.
But by 30, a combination of demographic and social factors(won't go into detail, but I've looked at some data on this) mean that there aren't enough good-husband candidates for the women who are single or divorced. If she has become a single mom, this gets magnified by a good margin. A decent looking man with an education and a good income has plenty of young women without children to choose from.
The "man deficit" gets worse with each year she gets older. I have met really impressive women in the range of 33 to 36 who were deeply discouraged about their marriage prospects.
There will be men here who completely disagree with what I just wrote -- this is one slob's perspective.
"are they just using the poor lonely shmucks like me to get over here and start a new life, preferably without their all too willing host?" -- Yes, some of them! There are men on this forum who got burned big time. This is the catastrophe we all want to avoid.
Thank you so much for taking the time and sharing your expertise Durak! You touched upon so many variables, many of which had not occurred to me.
I should mention that I was (nearly) scammed a few years ago by a 'lady' supposedly posing as a poor university student in a small, isolated village in Siberia. She saw my profile on one of the local dating sites and contacted me. Of course she sent several pictures of a gorgeous young blonde, with brilliant blue eyes.
She claimed to be on a student visa but she wanted to come to North America to start her career. Within a week she had sent me more photos (some of her 'mother' and 'sisters'), and told me she needed a place to stay for a bit. Thinking I had won the lottery, I happily agreed, but I waited pensively for the other shoe to drop; and drop it did.
She e-mailed me several times during her supposed train trip to the airport in Moscow, stringing me along with the charade that she was dutifully on her way. Having arrived at the airport, she had 'dire' news. Yup, here it comes, I thought as I read the rest.
She needed 900-some-odd dollars to complete the trip! I can't remember what the pretext was, but my heart dropped. Of course I politely declined, but offered her my accomodation if she still intended on making the trip. Needless to say, that was the last I ever heard from my Siberian beauty.
This experience served to drive me away from the idea of looking overseas for a potential mate for the last few years. I'm still highly skeptical but there are a few ladies I'm conversing with on this site that I'm feeling some degree of trust with. One wants to do a web cam chat via her interpreter.
Regarding age differences: I'm surprised (actually becoming slightly annoyed) by the number of really young (19-25 year old) ladies whose profiles are ending up in my mailbox. I politely explain my reasons for seeking someone within five years +/- my own age. Some disagree and tell me I should get to know them anyway! lol Do they even read the gentlemens' profiles before they respond, or is this just an automated cast from the dock?
I read your explanation of eligible husband material with great interest. It's astounding (and sad, really) to think that mid-thirty something and older ladies feel they won't marry. For me, that's the most attractive age for a woman. When I've asked about local prospects, most have told me the pickings are not very good.
I'm somewhat encouraged that none of the ladies I'm conversing with have closed communication with me, when I tell them that I'm a blue collar worker. I have a comfortable living, but I'm certainly not affluent, at least not by North American standards. Conversely, I've seen domestic women post on dating forums that they would never date someone like a plumber, mechanic, or truck driver. lol I suppose it depends on perspective.
Thank you again for the advice and encouragement Durak. Common sense and good judgement are my best tools here; I think so, anyway.
Canuck,
I am a man older than you, married to a lovely Russian woman younger than 25. My marriage is not perfect (tell me one person who has a perfect marriage), but we are both willing to face the challenges head on, which helps me feel warm and fuzzy about the long-term prospects of my relationship (only time will tell). Therefore, I do not think that your hopes and expectations are very much unrealistic, even if you expect to land a 25-year old FSU lady. However, I met my wife in "Moi Mir" and not on dating site.
Let me answer your questions based on my own experience:
1) Not married to a barbie doll, but she is very beautiful for my taste. A woman like my wife would have never given me the time of day in this country (especially due to age difference)
2) I used dating sites as learning experiences. I never paid for a letter. The most I paid was for the address of the lady, so we could communicate freely, without the involvement of any agency. And most importantly, I never gave any money to any girl I did not already know very well and in person.
3) Motivations for these girls are varied. Durak already wrote the most common. If you are a good man with good intentions and you know how to convey the right message to give the sense that you are serious and a man of your word, then you should have no problem meeting countless of good women who are also very attractive for our standards (a knock-out in America may easily be a common girl in the FSU - go there and you will understand what I mean).
4) My wife wants to live in Russia, close to her friends and family. I understand the sacrifice she is making and support her in her "moments." She has told me many times that she will return to Russia if our relationship ever ends. So, no, she was not desperate and she did not use me to leave Russia.
5) According to my wife's words there is nothing wrong with men in Russia. However, she did say that she is with me (instead of a younger and better looking Russian boy) because I may her feel like she is standing next to a stable wall. Therefore, reliability (or lack thereof) is a common theme for most of these girls. I have heard from many young FSU girls that they only find men who use them for sex but cannot offer any kind of long-term commitment. At some point, even the most beautiful girls get tired of just sex.
6) Talking more about number 5), I have a best friend from Russia who lives in the USA. She is a good girl and what you would consider a "barbie." It seems that it is no different in the USA, because the other day she called me to complain about the "a$$holes" she meets and to ask me for ideas to find a good, committed, and reliable man. She wants a real family (at 25) with children, but men she meets only want her for sex, due to her appearance.
7) Finally, it takes trial and error to find what you want. You must be open to disappointment and be ready to learn from your mistakes. The real women will answer all your questions. However, they will not tell you that they are also talking to other men. They know that you are also talking to other women. Therefore, you need to stand out until you have the chance to become exclusive. But once you win the heart of a good FSU woman (even the most beautiful), they will give you more than you ever expected (my experience).
8) By the way, if you look like a slob, you will have to lower your expectations. But if you take care of your appearance, even at 40, you can shoot for the moon if you want. However, be careful with the gold-diggers, because for them you are always a "fat" wallet, no matter how skinny or hot you are in appearance. There are plenty scammers and gold-diggers in the Internet dating world (even local dating).
9) Talking about local dating, I heard an American woman say that she loves Internet dating because that way she gets "free dinners," usually in expensive restaurants many times a week. Better yet, she did not have to have sex with anybody for that. For her, it made great financial sense :-)
Remember that this is only my experience and personal opinions. YMMV!
FSULover - #9 - yep, it also happens here in the states.
A couple things I will add to the above.
1)Do not misrepresent yourself (obviously you do not). And as far as your hobbies or interests, be sure to make it a prevalent part of discussion. I myself made it clear to any prospective lady that what I put in my profile was absolutely true and that if she had any doubts or wasn't 100% buying into this kind of lifestyle to not waste my time or hers.
2)Do not make any promises or compromise yourself with the false hope of being able to change one's attitude or thinking on what life will be like. In other words, tell it like it is. But also be sure that you are not changing yourself - you can't - in the hopes of making Miss Universe/"Barbie" happy.
Compromises are always a part of sharing a life with someone. And there will be many more than usual with an FSU lady. Just make sure she is on the same page as you.
If the girl has a real interest in you when you meet you will know. They have a way of making in known to other women that you are there's and, they will gouge the eyes out with there high heels of any women who gets to close.
having lived in fsu countries for months at a time its not too hard to understand why people who can, leave.
but i would not bring this up in conversation with her, because whats to gain by her admitting her country sucks. besides, its assumed you 'get it'.
i don't like to give advice because everybodys experiences are unique and limited to their own, but, if i had to, i would say the following three things:
1) don't put down your own country or your own people, and this includes women. If she asks why you chose russian women, just be positive and say you admire their beauty. Or better yet, tell her you can't find a women in your country that can make a tasty borsch. everybody appreciates humor.
2) leave your sneakers and shorts at home when traveling to fsu. dress like your a little bit more successful than the local people. remember, she wants to leave her country for a better life. and even the poor women in fsu want to be seen with a well dressed man.
3) don't get confused because this is a different country. women of character act the same in any country. they don't ask you for money. they don't fuck you on the first date. they 'probably' go to church. they 'probably' don't spend too much time at night clubs. etc...
"But by 30, a combination of demographic and social factors(won't go into detail, but I've looked at some data on this) mean that there aren't enough good-husband candidates for the women who are single or divorced."
Mr. Durak, You are holding out on us. Please tell us about your data.
With all due respect please stop assuming the whole world, the whole forum, is American nor all men seek an FSU lady merely for beauty.
In much of Europe the word 'sneaker' is unheard of and as for travelling to a city wearing shorts, must be some sort of lunatic! :) All guys have their own reasons for seeking FSU ladies, the majority of them diabolical, but not merely for their beauty, what beauty, they are no signifantly different in appearance to other European ladies?
the above was posted by ivor on a different thread - I copied and pasted it here for him.
I think the point gecko was trying to make - as with all women no matter where they are - is that women like to be complimented. They want to feel special. They like men who do not complain or whine. They like men who exude confidence. Chivalrous behavior is VERY IMPORTANT. And, in the profound words of ZZ TOP, "Coz every girl's crazy 'bout a sharp dressed man."
If I were to say to any lady the my reason for travelling up to half a world away was because of her, or her countrywomens, physical appearance then I would consider that I were insulting her and I would expect her to take offence, even if she were not to express offence, on the basis that the primary quality I saw in her, or in any woman, was physical appearance!
She might have university degrees, be very well educated, a fantastic personality etc. but one only seeks physical appearance!!!!!
Bowhunter is right. If they like you they are very territorial and when I first came here I was litterally dragged by the arm by some girl from a conversation I was having with another girl, though, I only met both of them that night. The first girl made it known I was with her (even though I wasn't) This actually went on between a few different girls as the night progressed finally to a point where I was surrounded by 5-6 girls all waiting for their turn...it was very different than anything I was ever used to. I had to excuse myself and pretend like I had to use the bathroom to get out of the situation and gather my thoughts because it was like 100% gender reversal from the USA.
If they like you, they are also extremely jealous of your looking at any other women but them. And that is really hard to not look at other women, at least for me, here.
Imagine how 20-25 year old men act in the US and then flip it around. That is how the girls act here. It's awesome really. It is completely transparent with no games, at least, the part about their interest in you.
well confidence goes a long ways with these girls so acting like you have everything under control and they can rely on you to be a man is very important to them. by the way where is my invite to the wedding.
Well Durak has answered your posts pretty definitely, so rather than repeat it I'm going offer one warning and one piece of advice ...
Warning: the moral compass of ex-USSR countries is very different to what you are used to, the nicest most "family oriented" woman is often capable of a single-mindedness and even ruthlessness to get ahead in life that as a westerner you will be totally unprepared for. If you find yourself at the wrong end of this you are in for a world of pain.
Advice: don't "fall in love" remotely, get over there and meet some women, spend as much time there as you can as that is the only way you will really "get" the culture and be in a position to heed the warning I just gave you.
Yeah but what is the difference? It's the same thing in the west.
A woman is a woman, she will burn your ass if you pick the wrong one. There are some major differences between the two places.
People on this site are on this site because surely they have been fucked over royally at some point in their lives before. Or, the women local to them wont give them the time of day unless the wallet is like wide open. And even if it is, there is always a better looking, richer man to buy her bigger and better gifts.
At least here if a woman likes you, and you like her, and the relationship is DOOMED from the start, you are going to have a great woman, great times, great sex, great family life, and if you loose her, you still know where to find more. The girls here know that you have options available to you. That is what makes them different.
Rinse, Lather, Repeat.
I never found any shampoo I wanted to REPEAT with in USA. The RINSE part I found many times. The LATHER part...well, I am lathering.
Hmmm...just wanted to touch on differences between 'westernized' and FSU ladies. My general impression is that the FSU ladies are more 'traditional', at least in their views of marriage, career, and family. They seem to come across as more giving and less selfish and self-centred compared to their western counterparts. This is a major consideration for men who want a traditional relationship.
Guys, in your experiences, have you found that most ladies (in the 35-45 y/o age category) are willing to relocate to the west? I'd assume (naively?) that most ladies would willingly relocate to this part of the world, if given the opportunity. Which leads me to the question: how bad is their economic situation?
I haven't directly asked this of any of the ladies I'm conversing with, but most tell me they are living with their relatives (usually her mother). I'm sure leaving their home, friends, relatives, language, and culture would be very hard for most to do, especially as they age and become set in their ways. In a way, I would actually feel some guilt for expecting her to leave all she has. I guess this is one of the downsides to overseas dating...
CanuckGuy I have tried dating sites in America for 10 years. One of the most incredible statistics - I don't have actual data, just anecdotal evidence - is that most American women only want to meet a man withing 25 miles 50 tops. When I asked my wife why she wanted an American man she said she did not want an American man, she wanted a husband! America was not high on her list. We also discussed at length the difficulties involved. She has a son second year in university. To me that was the most worrisome bit of "baggage" to contend with. We spoke at length over it. I also spent some time with this young man and discussed it greatly with him. He is an impressive young man. He now lives alone in is mom's apartment. She has a network of people to check on him and her mother and sister spend a good amount of time making sure he stays on the straight and narrow.
She started to learn English only 18 months ago. She is the hardest working woman I have ever met! She is also very keen on the role of 'traditional wife'.
As for economics. She was debating on career opportunities after we met. She was living off savings for quite a while just eking out an existence. She finally took a job that she had to negotiate at length to get $1000 a month (30000 rubles). Leave at 8AM, get home at 10PM. Have to work some weekends. No such thing as overtime and forget benefits. She had a successful position until the economic 'collapse'. Regardless of that, she had about negative zero chance of ever finding a husband. She is from the southern part of Russia on the Black Sea coast. I am 51. My wife just turned 40. She looks much younger and is much better shape than most 40 year old women I know.
I happened to get lucky and meet someone of her caliber very early in my search. She has two degrees and is getting ready for a third. She wants to start studying biology even though she has not yet applied for classes in her field of choice just to get a jump on it.
So my answer to your question 'will they relocate?' is yes. BUT, there are always risks. The key is to find someone compatible with you who is independent with a strong sense of self. As far as expecting her to leave all she has, why would she be on an international marriage/dating site if she was not willing to relocate (assuming she is in it for the right reason)?
CanuckGuy, you are asking the right kinds of questions -- it seems to me that someone who embarks on such a challenge without thinking it through is more likely to go astray.
To your question, I am sure that most FSU women would prefer to stay in whichever town they think of as home. The women on the websites -- at least, those who are sincere -- are a self-selected minority who are willing to search abroad, in order to find a husband. But even so, most of them would rather find a husband in their own city. They have become deeply discouraged about that, and so they look abroad.
I have personal knowledge of two women in Kyiv, very intelligent and well educated, both about 30, each with one small son -- one really cute, the other could pass for a model -- who had completely given up on the possibility of finding a good man in Ukraine. They both found partners (neither is married yet, as of last reports) from the FSU, but not their own countries -- these men were living many 100s of km from Kyiv. Both the men are fluent Russian speakers, much easier for the ladies of course. One of the foreign men came to live in Kyiv (this gal can't get permission to move abroad with her son); the other is planning to relocate with her man to whichever country his career takes him to (he has prospects in several countries).
I have read that here in the USA, most unmarried women over a certain age (I don't remember the threshold, but I think it wasn't far over 40) will never marry (or remarry, as the case may be). Because of the "eligible husband" deficit I posted about above, this threshold is probably much younger in the FSU. Sometimes I feel really sad looking at the profiles, to think that so many of those impressive and attractive women who are 35+ will have to face middle age, menopause, and their elder years without a man at their side -- and how many of their children will grow up without the love of either their natural father (usually absent), or a stepfather.
It seems to me that Over There, grown women are significantly closer to their closely related family than is typical in the US. Families often have a lot of togetherness. They rely on each other for help -- it is an important tool for managing the hardness and deprivations of life in that part of the world. So for most of the women, relocating to another country, especially a very remote one, is a huge wrench. I think that a foreign husband (like I hope to become) must be deeply aware of the emotional impact, and as prepared as possible to help her deal with it. In my case, I intend that my wife (if God blesses my search with success) will have plenty of opportunity to visit back home.
Most of us men, by the time we are talking marriage, have had the opportunity to get to know her world -- what it looks and feels like, the rhythms of life there. But most of the women will have never seen our countries before arriving in order to marry. Her mental picture of the USA (for example) will be largely derived from soap operas, movies, and news reports on her local TV station. Any man who can vividly remember how strange everything seemed, on his first day in the FSU -- try to imagine having that experience without the psychological cushion of knowing that you will be returning in a week or two to everything that is familiar.
Perhaps the problem of homesickness is a little easier for mothers of young children, who are bringing the biggest part of their world with them. You may notice that some of the women's profiles say that they are looking for men from Europe only -- one reason for this, is that living in Europe makes it much easier to visit back to home in Ukraine or western Russia.
For any person to find contentment as an expatriate, whether their change of country is connected with marriage or not -- requires a tremendous sense of adventure, courage, and a LOT of patience, flexibility, adaptability, and humor. If, in getting to know a woman, I saw that by temperament she is intolerant, impatient, or inflexible, I would have to deeply question whether she is capable of making the transition -- however much she might want to.