When you look at how they live, wages etc and way of life, it is hard to believe that somebody wouldn't be interested in taking advantage of a "seemingly" more desirable life? I met a girl from the Ukraine working on cruise ships, we were together for only 3 weeks then our contract ended. I stayed in touch as did she hoping to get back on the same ship... when i couldn't get back on her ship she got off to meet me and we met in Thailand for 4 weeks of travel. Only was it then when she realized that we were not gonna stay at the Ritz and i wasn't gonna roll red carpets everywhere she went and that she was gonna have to fork out for some bills that the attitude changed!
I know deep down she was expecting me to pay her way for everything and when the reality hit that i wasn't she wasn't that keen on the relationship anymore. I think it is strange that somebody can go to such lengths to see you only to so quickly change their tune. The "savior syndrome" does exist but you cant feel guilty for everyone coming from countries that are less fortunate than your own. I have been with many girls from various countries who have had no issues with paying or where we stay etc, but this girl you could tell straight away that her hopes and dreams had been dashed when the expectations of her "savior" so to speak! did not come to fruition. I think if you really wanna see somebody and really like them, its doesn't matter if you have to sleep on the beach with a towel as long as you are with them.
There is such a sadness and hurt that you feel when deep down you know that somebody wants more than you thought... I was not on a dating site or anything, just a 30 year old guy on a cruise ship working and meeting people. I did have my ideas about women from countries such as these but i never really thought about it. It was a great time and she did pay for her half, as much as i saw her cringe every time. I think she stuck around cos she was scared to travel alone,we did laugh and get along but i think that she was "not there" from the beginning, different agenda i guess, she wanted the white night with all the trimmings and i was just happy to see her! she was 25...
I think that it is more complex than just east meets west. Most of the FSU missed out on the changes of the 20th century. From living under the Czars, then the Bolsheviks and brutality of Hitler and Stalin. Then the collapse of the Moscow machine. It is more than just economics. You and her are nearly a century apart in many ways. What many men do not understand, not all these women are scammers. Their honest and "real" expectations are not what you have been weened from during the "Women's Enlightenment" in the west. That is a man that will court a woman and be the man of the house. She might not have been seeking a savior, but a man that she can depend on to provide for a family. Not an "It takes a village, Metro-man". Check out Wanda's post from a few days ago on some Anastasia topic. She might be your type
Now looking back after knowing their conditions and understanding how hey live and the way of life i just feel so guilty about her paying anything. She was however coming from a job on cruise ships earning US dollars which was a substantial amount more than she would ever earn at home, however the guilt i feel over this is overwhelming and i just wish that the world was different. How it sucks that in 2011 people still have to live this way, i knew that it wasn't that great but i had no idea that it was really as bad as it is. Being Australian i kept saying how cheap it was in Thailand not knowing that most of the prices were at times even higher than she would pay at home!
I just feel so crap, i feel like i didn't even consider the circumstances as much as i should have, i just saw us as we were when we were working on ships. Anyways should i be feeling this crap about this or?? i just wish the world was equal, how dare it that people should have to live under such circumstances. But in saying that the amount of smiley faces you see on the people in Thailand that have next to nothing is amazing. I guess different beliefs and hot sunny weather all the time can make a difference :)
Russia covers half the times zones of the world. It also has vast differences in economic opportunities. As the "Soviet Union", all trade was centered in Moscow and in Russia it still is today. Life outside the industrialized and economic hub cities, there is little difference to the rest of the FSU countries. The western markets missed the opportunity for investment in the FSU where resources, both natural and human were not used. Twenty years has past and much has laid fallow like a "Western Ghost Town". Many people in the FSU pine for the old days before Perestroika. That is the largest failure in the past 4 U.S. government regime's foreign policy. All effort has gone into the middle east where there is no parity in trade. Then the resources of the oil are ignored as to prove that the military action was not about oil. That makes as much sense as giving all your money to an ex-wife to prove you truly love your new wife.
This is the more thoughtful conversation than I have read here in quite a while.
gd2bwise, it seems to me that you are beating yourself up, for your previous lack of awareness. Well, learning is good.
You asked about the difference between Russia and Ukraine: in rough terms (these are complex measurements), if you compare GDP per person, let's compare a few countries to a dollar of per-capita GDP in Ukraine:
$5.40 United Kingdom
So even though GDP-per-person in Russia is less than half that of the UK, it is still 160% higher than that of Ukraine! Does anybody think of Egypt, or Swaziland, as economic powerhouses? They are poorer than Ukraine ... but not by much.
Per-capita GDP is NOT the same thing as personal income, but they are related. If I (as an American) split a bill evenly with a Ukrainian, the half that the Ukrainian pays is quite a lot "bigger" than my half.
These comparisons aside, ideas of gender in the FSU are much closer to those in my country a couple of generations ago, than those of 2011 America. After all, this is one the things many of us like about women in the Russian-speaking world, no? They are usually comfortable with the idea that men are allowed to be masculine, and women are allowed to be feminine. Even if the man is from her own country, and the disparity of wealth between nations doesn't enter into it, in the process of dating and courtship THE MAN IS ALWAYS EXPECTED TO PAY.
People being people, not everyone thinks this way, but I believe that the great majority of traditionally minded women have a very firm expectation about this. She may feed you well from her kitchen, or give you little presents, but she never expects to pay for restaurants, dancing, hotel, etc. (For the record, apart from being taken out by foreigners, I know Ukrainians who have spent their lives in Kyiv without ever eating at a restaurant. This is a luxury for the wealthy.) When people are "just friends," it may be fine for each person to pay their own way -- but if there is anything more than that, the man had better keep his wallet stocked and handy.
This stuff can be a little startling for Americans -- in my country, many women will be offended if a man offers to pay, opens doors for her, and so on. In the FSU, it is practically guaranteed that she will be offended if you don't.
If a man represents himself as a suitable candidate for husband and father (as I do), he should be ready to provide for a household, and paying the tab during dating is a token of the willingness and ability to be a good provider.
This i understand now... I am only in my very early thirties and the way we grew up here in the west(as you expressed)is so very different. If you try to help or buy something or pay for something girls here get suspicious and think you want something, which is, usually sex. So for me it feels very uncomfortable to pay everything for a girl, because to me that feels like you are just buying somebody(sex)like they are a possession that you own. I don't like that feeling at all.
I like to know that somebody likes me for me. I definately offered to pay for things and most things we split and i did cover a lot of the costs, however not as you have expressed above. I know and i saw that it bothered her and i knew deep down that it was a problem. But do you think it's ok that she should value and judge you on this? does it mean that it is ok to presume that i can't or won't provide for her in the future? absolutely not. I want to be with a person who likes me, after all isn't that what love and or marriage is all about? not what you can pull out of your wallet?
I guess it's pretty straight forward, if you like a girl or want to date a girl from these countries then you do as needed in order to keep that stable, if not then i guess we have choices. I guess in some ways, for me, i would never be sure if she truly loved me.
it is unfortunate, but that's the way it is... wifey sez, 'things were much better before perestroika' --- people at least knew the score -- now it is dog-eat-dog... and to be sure, wife was not on board with the communist ideal... at least not to the extreme... she thinks americans are nuts... who can argue with all of the evidence...
but I can say for sure that I'd rather live no-where else. except maybe vancouver or costa rica... or new zealand, or the PI or PEI or france -- YES, FRANCE!!! on the med of course.
actually if I could live on the island of Capri I'd be okay. Italy is a great place to live, if you don't need to work... hong kong is okay too - for the wealthy
gb2bwise, i think you are looking to deep into this dude,
as the girl,, well she just worked out pretty quickly you are not the type that she wants, thats all.
they seem more straight up with such then most western girls.
i have had over six months over there now, what i found most women wouldnt dream of moving to your australia or to my new zealand,,, its just what it is, they think we are the ones in need in many ways.
also some of these girls just live in some dream that real men are rich and thats that.
russians and ukraines love their financial status or wealth, so think what this dose to these girls minds when they see other girls they know in amongst it or just seeing other girls often covered in gold or openly in the most expensive cafes, in their must have clothes, all given by mr rich.
not all are like this, buts its noticeable.
girls that travel are also often very different to the common poor person in that world, do not mistake her as a common poor soul, manipulation is a pass time for many girls(small or large) and its not common for any poor person to travel out of there.
i met a russian girl at some airport returning home from one of those cruise ships,, how noticably stuck up she was, it reminded me of (no i will not say) but its not what makes me adore russians.
nothing is what it seems, and you cannot compare..