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	Create New Topic   My Posts   My forum buddies   Invite friends   Private messages Russian brides > Main Forum > New study on Russian men's drinking Author Post WIFESEEKER Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 1/31/2014 6:39:01 AM   A new study has been published about Russian men life expectancy: 1/4 of them will die before the age of 55. The main culprit: Vodka There are still Western men that do not believe the number one complaint that FSU women, in dating sites, give about their men: their drinking. Sad but to our advantage. The most common complaints after this are infidelity, unreliability and no money and/or no job. Selkie Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 2/1/2014 6:37:07 AM   A bit of an alternative view: I am a woman - originally from Ukraine, not from Russia, but all the same - there are similar figures for my country, re male mortality. I currently live in the UK, and this is what I am here to say. The way and amounts many Britons drink... I haven't seen anything like this even back home. At least in my circles. But it is not a study of course. bowhunter Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 2/1/2014 7:53:20 AM   you do not need to go to Russia to find these men we also have them here in poor areas. ragingbull Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 2/1/2014 10:23:29 AM   My sentiments exactly, Bowhunter. Wifeseeker, your statistics (yes, statistics which you claim you don't like) has no references and therefore is useless. WIFESEEKER Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 2/1/2014 4:41:47 PM   bowhunter: In Russia it is from paupers to Mafia millionaires durak Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 2/2/2014 1:12:17 PM   @rb, if references make the statistics more useful, then you may wish to look at these: __________________________ http://tinyurl.com/pzx84rq Th is is the study titled "Alcohol and mortality in Russia: prospective observational study of 151 000 adults" in The Lancet, the principal medical journal of the UK. The linked page has the abstract; apparently by creating a username and password, you can download the full study at no cost. By way of conclusion, the abstract says "This large prospective study strongly reinforces other evidence that vodka is a major cause of the high risk of premature death in Russian adults." As an example of the study's findings: "Among 57 361 male smokers with no previous disease, the estimated 20-year risks of death at ages 35—54 years were 16% (95% CI 15—17) for those who reported consuming less than a bottle of vodka per week at baseline, 20% (18—22) for those consuming 1—2·9 bottles per week, and 35% (31—39) for those consuming three or more bottles per week; trend p<0·0001." This means, for example, that of those smokers consuming less than one bottle/week, 1 in 6 who were still alive at age 35 had died before age 55. (By the way, this is an awful mortality for men in this age range.) In contrast, of those smokers drinking three or more bottles per week who were still alive at age 35, more than 1 in 3 (that is, more than twice as many) had died before age 55. [Note 1: The pairs of figures in parentheses show the statistical uncertainty of the data. For example, (31-39) means that it is more than 95% likely that at least 31% of the men died, and that not more than 39% had died; the average of those two numbers, 35%, is given as the best estimate.] [Note 2: The main numbers are based on smokers, because relatively few of the non-smokers reported that they drank heavily. However, the increase in mortality among non-smoking men who drank heavily was similar to the increase of mortality for smokers as measured in percentage points -- that is, about the same number of men per thousand MORE dying when they drank heavily.] To put it in plain language, the death rate for these relatively young Russian men is terrible even when they don't drink ... and heavy drinking makes it more than twice as bad. From Britain's Guardian, reporting on this study: “a quarter of Russian men die before reaching 55, compared with 7% of men in the UK and fewer than 1% in the United States. The life expectancy for men in Russia is 64 years, placing it among the lowest 50 countries in the world in that category.” Take a minute to wrap your head around that: for every American man dying before age 55, MORE THAN TWENTY-FIVE Russian men have died. But wait: it gets worse! __________________________ http://tinyurl.com/lxhe6c6 An article about the study in Medical News Today: According to one of the study's authors, Dr. Paul Brennan, "Because some who said they were light drinkers later became heavy drinkers, and vice-versa, the differences in mortality that we observed must SUBSTANTIALLY UNDER-ESTIMATE THE REAL HAZARDS of persistent heavy drinking." (emphasis added by durak) Also from this article: "The main causes of death among the heavy drinkers were alcohol poisoning, accidents, violence, suicide, throat cancer, liver cancer, tuberculosis, pneumonia, pancreatitis, liver disease and heart disease." __________________________ In Alcoholics Anonymous they say, "there's no problem so bad that you can't make it worse by drinking." There is some hopeful news from the study: the affordability and availability of vodka have varied quite a lot (both down and up) since 1980 because of changes in economic conditions and government policies; when vodka was harder to get, mortality dropped sharply. So government policy can make a real improvement. WIFESEEKER Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 2/2/2014 1:24:15 PM   Raginbull, You see, I am clarivoyant and I guessed you were going to try and get me where you could, on my assertions. Here it is: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-25961063 Two of the most respectable bodies: the BBC and The Lancet talking about this study. Did you think I was going to come and speculate, like you, with no basis, so that you could get me? I am still waiting for your UN study on how the maturity age for marriage is 25/26....waiting.... WIFESEEKER Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 2/2/2014 1:39:06 PM   I had forgotten, yes smoking is another problem with Russian/Ukrainian men. I employ builders from Russia and the Ukraine. When I go to the site I am appalled at the number of cigarette butts, empty bottles of cheap Vodka and beer cans they leave lying around the site, when they stay at the site overnight. During the day, it is a cigarette every 1/2 hour. Imagine their poor women at home with the children and the house always full of smoke. Then he goes and dies by the age of 55 and leaves no life asurance policy behind. Of course, many Russian and Ukrainian women smoke too. Many women in dating sites have told me in no uncertain terms that they do not like men who drink. FSU man + Cigarettes + Vodka = FSU woman looking for Western man Selkie, in the UK the real problem of alcoholism in Scotland but then they use our medical services in England so they are OK.... ragingbull Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 2/2/2014 5:37:18 PM   Thanks, Durak. My searching did no good. Here is a quote from your article: "Among 57 361 male smokers with no previous disease, the estimated 20-year risks of death at ages 35—54 years were 16%" First of all, they were smokers. Nonsmokers were not counted. Perhaps the risk of death was from smoking, perhaps it was from drinking. More than likely, it was from both. But, we don't know. Nonsmokers not being counted boosts up the data, and 16% is far less than Wifeseeker's claim of 1/4. Claims such as this without data leads to exaggeration and false conclusions. The next person who will quote this without the data might exaggerate even more. lonelyranger1701 Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 2/2/2014 7:31:49 PM   Durak,,,, good article! “for those who reported consuming less than a bottle of vodka per week at baseline” I drink screwdrivers once in a while,,, but I doubt whether I ever exceeded a bottle or two in a year,,, ever! (emphasis added by durak) Durak,,, just use ( !! ) exclamation points?! With a little practice, you can do it with just one hand!! lol ragingbull Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 2/3/2014 12:29:16 PM   "I am still waiting for your UN study on how the maturity age for marriage is 25/26....waiting...." I never said such a study existed. I showed you a US study. Explain to me why it is true for the US and not the rest of the world. Why do you think there are laws against marrying or sex with minors if there is no maturity? I don't understand why the conclusion of this is Russian men die because of drinking vodka when they studied only smokers. That's just like studying why white men can't slam dunk and studying only midgets. WIFESEEKER Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 2/3/2014 6:16:34 PM   I also pointed out in another thread that it is not only that Russian (and Ukrainian?) men die younger. During the last 3/4 years of their lives they must be unable to work and become a burden to the long suffering wife who has to be a nurse to them too. That is if the man is still around. It is amazing how many of the Russian and Ukrainian households I have visited, as well as those described by the ladies I get in touch with through the dating agency, comprise up to three generations of women: girl(s), mother and grand-mother and no man to be seen anywhere. They have already left them or they are dead. The girls I talk to see themselves a their mothers in 20 years time and their grand-mothers in 40 years time so they think: "I had better find a foreigner or else I will end up like this, here" Ragingbull: The claim that 1/4 of Russian men die before the age of 55 is by the Lancet and BBC, not me. Read carefully. They know more than me. durak Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 2/3/2014 6:59:55 PM   @rb: Perhaps you missed something, when reading my reply. Please read again, and see my Note 2. When 1000 non-smokers drink heavily, their excess deaths (compared to 1000 non-smokers who drink lightly) ... is about equal to the excess deaths among 1000 smokers (compared to 1000 smokers who drink lightly). The Lancet study was about the effect of drinking, not total mortality. However, since male life expectancy in Russia is measured to be 64 years (meaning that 1/2 of males born alive die before reaching age 65), it seems quite likely that 1/4 of them are already dead by around age 55. Note that male life expectancy in Ukraine is a little better than Russia at 65 1/2 years. These compare to 77 1/2 years for the USA, 79 1/2 years for the UK, and 80 1/2 years for Australia. It's interesting to compare that male life expectancy in the Philippines is 70 years -- much better than in Russia, where the per-capita GDP is at least 4 to 5 times that of the Phillippines. Though poor countries fare worse (on average), Russia can't blame its miserable public health situation on poverty. ragingbull Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 2/3/2014 9:57:57 PM   Now how did you come up with that data on your note 2, Durak? It is nowhere on the article. ragingbull Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 2/3/2014 10:01:40 PM   On nonsmokers, I mean. Does it bother you that the study was done in only three cities, and not the big city, Moscow? durak Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 2/4/2014 12:48:34 AM   CORRECTION: The text I quoted from the Guardian (about the proportion of men dying by age 55) contains a big factual error. I can confirm that the 25% figure for Russia and 7% for the UK are reasonable estimates, if not spot on. However, the statement of "fewer than 1% in the United States" (dying before age 55) is absolutely wrong. From the Social Security mortality tables, the true figure is slightly more than 10%. The more I thought about the 25:1 ratio, the crazier it seemed, so I did a fact check. My all-caps statement to emphasize this is accordingly quite wrong: it's actually 5 Russian men dying for every 2 American men. To give a TRUE picture of the proportions, consider in each country a representative group of 144 bouncing baby boys. The "bars" below show a * for each group of 5 still living, and a - for each group of 5 who have died. By age 55: In the UK, 10 have died. ***************************-- In the US, 15 have died. **************************--- In Russia, 36 have died. **********************------- By age 65: In the UK, 20 have died. *************************---- In the US, 26 have died. ************************----- In Russia, 72 have died. **************--------------- We can see more "fallen soldiers" in Russia. The Lancet article presents evidence that a lot of their fast rate of falling, is due to heavy alcohol consumption. Note that the dashes give some hint of the proportion of widowed females. My apologies to all, for quoting incorrect numbers in my long comment above. durak Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 2/4/2014 12:50:09 AM   I see that the dashes printed shorter than the stars above, so trying again with a different character: In the UK, 10 have died. ***************************__ In the US, 15 have died. **************************___ In Russia, 36 have died. **********************_______ By age 65: In the UK, 20 have died. *************************____ In the US, 26 have died. ************************_____ In Russia, 72 have died. **************_______________ ragingbull Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 2/4/2014 10:46:58 AM   OK. I found the nonsmoker's part on the last last sentence of a paragraph. "Among male non-smokers and among females, self-reported heavy drinking was uncommon, but seemed to involve similar absolute excess risks." Durak, you said "was similar to the increase of mortality for smokers as measured in percentage points". The article says "seemed to involve similar absolute excess risks". The original number, based on 57,361 smokers we can assume is accurate since they gave exact numbers. The nonsmoker part they gave no numbers and used those words. I don't know how the can use the words seemed and absolute in the same sentence. This was based on observation and not actual numbers. While it could be true, it could also be stated just to prove a point. ragingbull Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 2/4/2014 1:13:19 PM   OK. I concede the 25%. Although it is probably due to alcohol, I am not sure if the study proved that. Life expectancy means half will die before that age. That's something I learned. Wifeseeker made the claim without references which he was holding until I called him on it. As Durak said, the study was not on mortality, but the effect of drinking. Wifeseeker and BBC made it look like it is about mortality. Durak, please settle something with your proficiency in statistics. This is something we discussed before. I have made a claim that marriage after the age of 26 has significantly lower divorce rate than those who marry before that age. Wifeseeker says there is no such threshhold. I have posted the link to the US study, but I could not find a corresponding world study. http://goo.gl/ljcEHa Wifeseeker found one for England and Wales that said divorce rates was highest for ages 40-44 in 2011. I don't believe one year out of many is significant at all, and it is probably due to the recession. http://goo.gl/xzmMhC There are many young women on dating sites, under the age 26. We have established that many of them are paid to be there. I don't believe they are that desperate to find mates at that young age as their profiles claim. My concern is Wifeseeker, with that claim is advocating that looking to marry young has no consequences. WIFESEEKER Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 2/5/2014 5:36:03 PM   Ragingbull, I am only interested in the current or latest studies or statistics, I do not care what it was like 100, 50 or even 10 years ago. Ciecumstances change all the time. Otherwise, let it go. It is risible that you are asking Durak to tell you you are right, just to get at me, especially when you have been disputing what he says. Added to this, pay attention: he did not make the study on Russian men, he is just commenting on it, Christ! Your Reply: Your name:   New Registration Password:   Forgot password?   refresh Code:   Russian brides > Main Forum > New study on Russian men's drinking
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