Oh boy....I leave for a few days and look at the corpses that people resucitate!!!!
Only western women who have premeditated plans to fleece the men they plan to marry oppose pre-nups.
Eastern women on the way to marriage to western men oppose them out of fear and ignorance.
Western men who have built assets, savings and a certain amount of patrimony long before they meet the eastern sweetheart who wants to marry for 'love only' (wink wink wink) usually carriy a proportional level of financial repsonsibility to other people in their life...kids, elderly parents, charities, employees, etc etc etc. The list is long.
By opposing a prenup, you're simply refusing him the basic right to protect his children and other dependents. Only a heartless, self centered bitch would callously demand any man to marry her without one.
Good luck to you with your prenupless trol, dear...
I would like to reopen this topic. My advise to everybody: make pre-nap agreements. work it out with your fiancee so it will secure you and her. especially foreign brides, especially in USA.
may be it can save you from later problems.
you surprise me with your above request.
Would you mind saying why you want this, because I think there's 2 parties here, the Pro's and the Con's. Keep in mind that first of all their motives must be based on their current assets, and of course the applicable legislation plays a role.
But secondly, for some the ethics behind it, the personal aspects of such an agreement, seems to be a stumbling-block sometimes if I sense correct, and handling this varies per individual.
A guy of 25, having finished the uni and having his first job, hardly ever will consider a prenup when getting married. But somebody who (re)marries a lot later in life probably will, may even has to, when his life's gatherings are a lot different i.e. more.
Say now he's a partner in a business. He marries but unfortunately this goes wrong and divorces, and assume by law she will be entitled to half of his share. This share, as is typical for such a situation, is a paper-value because no liquid funds exist, and to turn them liquid either substantial personal indebtation or the balance of the shares is literally on the scale.
Such a guy HAS to marry with a prenup, there's no two ways about it.
But maybe he's a worker in a shop, lives rented (or with a 0% deposit, same thing) and pays off his clothing even, in other words he has virtually zero. If he marries there's hardly any financial grounds to warrant a prenup.
Alimony or Maintenance is not covered by any prenup I think, because this is arranged by law rather than a personal contract, and if the latter undermines the statuory rights then I think it is worth virtually zero when tested in court.
These are potentially lifelong payments, a substantial amount which may pale the initial 'handover' an attorney is able to negotiate.
Some of you ARE divorced and pay this already - care to share?
Only child support is NOT covered by a well written prenup.
Alimony or Vaginamony, (as we affectionately call it in Calif) can be stipulated by the contract.
Even the 25 yr old you refer to should consider a prenup to protect his future income potential.
But then again, I doubt too many 25 yr olds are going to FSU to find a wife.
Most of them have not been burnt enough by western feminazis yet.
And an even less amount of ZERO patrimony men are able to afford the expenses of bringing a foreign bride to live here in a rented apartment with zero deposit.
The younger you are, the more you need a prenup because you simply do not know what the future will bring years from now.
The best thing each man can do is get familiar with their own state laws and court handlings of cases before making a final decision to draw a prenup or not.
Some men may say "f...this prenup crap" and avoid the aggraviation it may cause presenting it to his loved one.
To me that is character flaw that tells me they have a terrible time facing sticky issues and hide from sharing them with the one person should be able to share them. Their wife.
What will they do if they face a sudden major problem AFTER they're married? Hide it, as well?
By far, regardless of their age, the men in most need of a prenup are those who not only have previous assets and savings to protect, but also have financial obligations to children from previous marriage(s), elderly parents, charities, etc etc etc.
I have always thought this topic to be important and hope it does not go the way of the FIGHT CLUB.
in FIGHT CLUB some participants have taken off the gloves, and are likely to get hurt in this process. I fail to see a reason to do so because of lacking any motive.
Your reasoning for thinking a prenup is a must is a reflection of your character, or rather a projection. You are in the position you are in now because of either luck, drive or a combination ('strue), but I am sure you also realize that a lot of characters exist who lack anything drive-wise but for hormones & beer.
These latter types are employed, and may even rank sort-of highish up the company-hierarchy, and let's be honest - they are the majority in life. I dare to say that first of all their life-gatherings are none to mediocre, but also that they hardly will consider a prenup for rather obvious reasons.
But also I think that these men crowd the foreign dating scene, looking for a young beautiful cheap wife or lay because they under-estimate this process thouroughly, often simply lack doing any homework, and the gullible types amoung them fall prey to the scammers.
In maybe a stark contradiction to these, probably abundant, types are the likes who have built something they are, often deserved even, proud of. This building goes hand in hand with some, or much, management of money hence they will lean more towards a prenup than the more mundane types.
I also hunch that this same type is experienced by the RW as the the typical 'stingy' one, maybe because of his bragging towards her with all his assets whilst not visiting her in a whim, but also because of suggesting a prenup to her - and keep in mind that this is, correct me if wrong Oleg, unusual in Russia.
And Oleg, on this point, important to the forum? That sounds to me you carefully hint towards female readers, those who are more used to read Cyrillic characters? ;-)
The one and only reason why I believe prenups should be a mandatory tool of marriage (regardless of nationalities of those getting married) is the lopsised, anti-male, pro-female abuse legislation almost every state in the country has thought up, passed, implemented and overabused in almost every divorce court in america.
I have a fundamental core DISbelief in the much advertised, applauded and supported so called "equality" goals of every feminist in the west.
Quite the contrary, everything points out to a purpose of 'turning the table', male subjugation/emasculation and complete role reversal, instead.
Regarding the FIGHT CLUB occurences all I can say is this:
As long as they keep it inside the thread, fine.
That's exactly why I started it and hope Olga will let it ride, regardless of the nastiness.
I do not believe anyone here, there or anywhere can get anyone else to 'get along' with people they do not like or want to fight with. Specially, when the ability to hide behind the keyboard eliminates the chance of a K.O. that barbaric or not would end the argument.
I'm too pragmatic to entertain harmony idealistic goals among complete strangers. All I aimed to achieve was fight containment and preservation of the other topics in the forum. That's all.
What went wrong in several countries, so legislation that clearly is unfair to nearly half of the population was introduced?
(and, there are more women than men [in the west], so men are actually a minority - shouldn't we be 'protected'?)
(instead of being under attack).
Geri and others,
You may want to find contact or listen/read about Lykas 101.
The radio show Tom Lykas (sp) talks about it all the time in a most provocative, entertaining and 'no holds barred' manner.
Well I just got through a divorce with a filipina . We have a daughter together and guess what .... just like one of the previous writers said she was younger and very pretty . I just found out recently that she has been having numerous adulterous affairs . Like the other guy said ... she became like a kid in a candy store. It started after 5 years of marriage , we just got divorced ( by the way if you are a US citizen you can have an uncontested completely legal divorce in Guam finished in one month !) She never worked , never cooked , seldom did any house work and was a poor mother . Shes now getting two and a half years of alimony , she got a Lexus and a house paid for in the philippines .
You are damn right I believe in pre nups ! I would never marry a foreignor without a fidelity clause - she was nice and sweet when I met her and all I heard for years is what a good husband I was , how I never abused her or the kids , took care of her family in the philippines , had a great attitude etc. etc. then I heard that she was telling her friends that she was treating me like crap so I would divorce her - good thing her friends told me about the affairs and the dumping of my kids .... bottom line get the pre nup - ignore that feminist BS if she says no to a fidelity pre nup get away from her - if she loved you she would sign it without hesitation.
Sorry but this is not an East/ West divide, this is a US/ The rest of the World divide. In the UK and Europe pre nuptial agreements are the province of so called "celebrities" whose "marriages" are even more transient than their fame. They are purely a financial arrangement and are ridculed by real people.
"Let's get married and spend the rest of our lives together. But first let's decide who gets what when we divorce."
Here's my top tip, if you are planning a divorce cut out the middle man and forget about the marriage, you'll get to keep everything!
Pre-nups are the exception rather than the rule and judges tend to apply set criteria. The unspoken one of course is that the state doesn't end up picking up the tab for supporting her. I watched a friend's wife give up her career, go onto state benefits, become 'ill with depression', simply as tactics to obtain maximum benefit and sympathy from the courts in a settlement. Some men are no better, they work on the basis of half of nothing is nothing and blow it all in a mindless binge.
The system almost always makes the two parties adversarial generating even more psychological and emotional carnage.
What's sad is that bars all over the world are full of men drowning their sorrows and cursing the day their ex was born, after she walked off with the house, the car, the kids, etc... and it's never the man's fault, only the injustice of the system. It's tough for the male 'provider' to accept that, after spending years building wealth, his wife may decide she's better off with ice cream and chocolate than with him and knows the courts are going to ensure she doesn't suffer. The shrewd ones are pregnant before they even get you up the aisle. The poor guy, who was too young or naive to factor the risk gets a very hard lesson that he did in fact bestow upon his beloved 'all his worldly goods'.
What makes it even more pointless is the slagged off ladies are totally UN-concerned and oblivious to his pain and rage as he bleeds into his beer mug. He thinks he hurts her with his constant badmouthing but only hurts himself. She's too busy being comforted by the local tennis pro.
The result of this is only too clear, the slow death of marriage as risk averse men shy away from it or a reduction in the number of couples having children. It would be great if pre-nups were the norm and courts supported them but they can take the view that an agreement, made when a female was young and in her prime, may not be so acceptable, when she's over 40 and in the marital knackers yard. Easy for a man to get the best of her years, then dump her for a younger model.
Whatever the rights or wrongs and I'm not so sure what the solution is, my own approach has been to walk away and not look back in anger. Otherwise you end up with 3 new 'brides'... pain, anger and thoughts of revenge. Not exactly the best mindset to go courting any new RW. Who's going to want a man like this? Been there, done that.
In reality, divorce can be the BEST thing that can happen, freeing those from the 'test of endurance' that their marriage may have become, the chains of material bondage and the idea that the only route to fulfillment and happiness is to lead a conventional life. It certainly forced me to take a good look at myself and to wake up from my pre-programmed 'sleepwalking'.
If you ever re-marry, I will do so in the full knowledge that if the marriage fails, the courts can and probably will strip you of the bulk of your assets.
Since this is unacceptable to me, as I head into my 50's, marriage is no longer on the table. Unless she has her own assets.
I have cared for a very cute filipina nurse over the past year and prepared her to go to USA as a licensed nurse in the state of Vermont! She comes from an impoverished family and circumstances in the Phils but despite these obstacles and a little family assistance she graduated nursing in the Philippines. Honestly I love her like a daughter and wish to get her to the USA as I fear for her future! There is no romantic feelings on my part so I would be doing this as one of the few selfless acts I have commited in my life. I fear that as many things that I have done in my life that it will be the old adage again "NO GOOD DEED GOES UNPUNISHED".
She currently has a K1 fiance visa with me and is all set to go to the USA. Her visa will expire by November 27 2007!
The problem is that I am TERRIFIED that these prenuptials are not binding on the courts and the judges have unlimited discretion to HONOR them even if they are entered into without duress and coersion. I think I know the rules, his and her lawyers, full financial disclosure and video tape the prenuptial signing with lawyers present! I am too old to start over again at age 50 and need to protect my assets for the future! I also know my fellow Americans and there cinical view of circumstances such as this and speculation of alterior motivation and dread the unfair judgement of my fellow Americans. Of course she has sworn that she would never hurt me financially whenever we parted but I am incapable of trust of even my parents! I am just a guy who wants to see someone he cares deeply for reach her potential and get her shot at the dream in the USA! She has worked so hard for this opportunity in the USA. I hate to break this angels heart! She is smart and could do so much good for the USA as a nurse.
OK please tell me then am I crazy? Is there another way? I hear that these judges view these prenuptial agreements as many women do as simply a declaration of future divorce. I always thought these prenuptials were excellent instruments to ensure a home of harmony and reduce the aspect of domestic violence. I was shocked to find out how tentative these agreements actually are and are not binding on the court at all! Honestly I find it a pathetic situation that the judges and courts lecture us to talk over everything ahead of entering into any relationship but will not ratify and make binding these prenuptial agreements ahead of any pending marriage. Is there any way to have a court ratify these agreements in advance and make them binding in all 50 states. I have planned to draft a letter to my daughter/fiance regarding the pending prenuptial and have her sigh it before a notary before she departs the Philippines. Can anyone tell me if this is adequate to satisfy the courts that the agreement has not been coerced or signed under duress. I fear that these family court judges would view any prenuptial with a foreign bride as entered into by coersion. I cannot live in FEAR and if I cannot find an answer shortly I fear I will have to leave this poor girl and crush her dreams!
If you wonder where my fear comes from I will confide in you. My unemployed ex wife that I cared for and her son from her first marriage successfully hid an affair with a scum sucking lawyer during our marriage. She and this lawyer attempted to profit greatly in the divorce. She married the lawyer three days after our divorce. Of course the courts never ask if anyone is in an affair! They do not care!!!
Seriously prussian7489, if you love her like a daughter and have no romantic feelings for her - then you should not be using a fiance visa AT ALL. First of all you DO put yourself at considerable risk for your assets. Second of all - its fraud, punishable with a hefty fine and jail time, if found out.
I honestly don't know much about the specifics but I DO KNOW that there are visas specifically meant for people in professions for which there is a shortage of qualified people. I don't KNOW if her credentials as a nurse would qualify her for practice in the US - but its worth a try. You could certainly still assist her by signing an affidavit of support (I think).
prussian7489, if you dine with the devil make sure you have a long spoon. What you would be doing would be creating a marriage of convenience to obtain a visa for this girl. If you/her are sucessful then not being covered by the prenuptial agreement may not be your only problem. I think its a bad idea no matter how much your care for her and want to help her.
"Any individual who knowingly enters into a marriage for the purpose of evading any provision of the immigration laws shall be imprisoned for not more than 5 years, or fined not more than $250,000, or both (I.N.A. 275(c), 8 U.S.C. 1325(c))"