"...pre nups can be difficult as it can be declared later void due to the language barrier (ie she can later say she had no idea what she was agreeing to)...."
Should that happen, it would be 'natural justice' that any other agreement and contract she has signed is also null and void!
(which could 'cut both ways'!)
My fiancee and I recently had a discussion about this. She told me about a man she heard about who recently went to Kiev to try and meet some of her friends that he had been writing to. The one stipulation he had was that the women would have to sign a pre-nuptual agreement. She told me that men and women in the Ukraine never do this. They have no idea that this practice even exists. She said that the man was demanding sole custody of any and all children from the marriage should they ever be divorced and that the woman would get no financial support in the event of a divorce. This is what he was basically making the women agree too on their first few meetings. The women were basically shocked, humiliated and outraged by him and what they saw as his arrogance. His desire to protect his "wealth" was seen as sheer arrogance, pettiness, "cheapness" and stupidity. The entire idea of the man demanding custody of the children was unheard of. She explained the women always raise and care for the children in the Ukraine and the man customarily offers financial support. That is simply how things are done and accepted. Because of this one thing of a pre-nup being mentioned this man blew any hope he ever had of ever establishing a relationship with any of these women. After their first meeting most never wanted to see this man again in their lives. So something to consider.
BrianM
Yes you are right on how things are done in Ukraine. Yes the guy had tunnel vision and limited social skills.....but
Were they going to live in Ukraine?
As a friend once told me, they may speak English but they think Ukrainian. I am not saying yes or no on an agreement, however depending on where they live has a lot to do with what customs dictate... If women refuse to accept change in customs then they should keep their hopes limited to their own men and their own customs.... Same goes for guys, keep their toes on their own soil if there isnt flexibility....
Brian,
Obviously that dude was still recovering from previous experiences, lol.... But if that's the approach he had, I doubt he'll have much success.
I always advocate prenups to protect both parties.
It's useless to try to include child custody into a prenup because any court (US at least) will consider child custody based on the 'current' set of circumstances, not something previously agreed to by both parties.
That's why some people see pre-nups as useless, because from the child custody perspective, they often are.
A well prepared prenup, will protect the man's previous assets and income, something Mrs. new wife will have done nothing to create or help create.
And it should protect her as well by establishing a specific amount based on the number of marriage years, not lifestyle.
Again, kids are a complete different beast altogether.
Leave them out of any prenup you may consider getting.
There is a popular misconception about those with some level of wealth because of the high income they earn.
Along with that high income usually come higher financial responsibilities and committments.
In my own morbid way, sometimes (but only for a few minutes, lol) I envy those who marry on equal terms, meaning they have no previous assets to protect or previous financial commitments that would require a prenup to shelter their income.
It is ambiguous and even hypocritical to label those with assets as selfish or overly greedy bastards while at the same time they are respected and appreciated for assuming the financial responsibilities to provide such things as college educations, elderly care, assistance to charitable causes, etc etc etc....
Yeah, I do agree and I can see many of those parts and points of view. I have even considered the question of a pre-nup myself. But after the blasting I got about this guy that I don't even know I doubt it would be something to consider or mention right now. I posted this mostly for the enlightening of those guys going over for their first visit. I would not suggest bringing this up at that time. Maybe after you know each other a bit and can discuss things logically and calmly. But this guy that brought this up as a requirement from girls he barely knew during their first one or two dates - in my mind at least - was a total dumb ass. Because those girls did label him as "selfish or overly greedy" to put it mildly.
I know in the Ukraine and most of the FSU it is customary that the man and woman only have one child during their lifetime. So when I spoke to my fiancee about this (she brought it up) she was practically in tears about how this man could possibly deny a mother from being with her child. She thought of it as one of the most cruel things in the world she could imagine. She (and most of her friends who this guy dated) didn't really give a flip about any of the guys wealth. In fact it was a turn off for them because he was always bragging about how much money he had and how large his house was, etc. So they could care less. But the part about the child custody drove every single one of them away. None of them wanted to see him again after that.
From the law offices of Harrison, Sale & Varner
To all whom this may come to concern, know ye that it is understood that
on the _______ day of _________ 1998, Wessman(hereafter known as the first party) and Beyonce Knowles (hereafter known as the second party) are entering the contract of wedlock.
The following is a detailed agreement regarding all properties and how they shall be divided in the event of a divorce.
His Hers
The dog Everything else.
Season tickets
The weedeater
First Party: Signature_______________ Date___________
Second Party: Signature_______________ Date___________
From the law offices of Harrison, Sale & Varner
To all whom this may come to concern, know ye that it is understood that
on the _______ day of _________ 1998, Wessman(hereafter known as the first party) and Beyonce Knowles (hereafter known as the second party) are entering the contract of wedlock.
The following is a detailed agreement regarding all properties and how they shall be divided in the event of a divorce.
His Hers
The dog Everything else.
Season tickets
The weedeater
First Party: Signature_______________ Date___________
Second Party: Signature_______________ Date___________
I have already explained my point of view...courts today in Ukraine also give children away to their father, and not always to their mother. It depends on different situations.
As for a pre-nup agreement, as I'm staying here I can speak out what I really think;) I think that signing a pre-nup before the wedding really kills the romantic part, I already said that a per-nup to me is like a contract. Yes your girl may accept it, but ask her honestly what does she think? And she will tell you "I like this idea"...just because she loves you and doesn't want to hurt you...but she may not like this idea at all, but won't show her attitude never in her life, maybe she will share with her closest friend here...maybe even not!!
Obviously
it's a splendid idea to avoid unpleasant questions - particularly just before one 'ties the knot',
however,
it's also a good idea to think ahead and think about "What If questions"...
(at the same time you could think about Life Insurance and Will...)
If preserving romance is the main purpose of all marriages, well then marriage would not exist.
Marriage is the most demanding contract any person ever signs.
How else would you explain the need to SIGN a marriage certificate?
Signing that marriage contract certificate is OK, but signing a prenup agreement that protects previous assets is not?
Nonsense!
Of course a marriage is a contract, not only because it requires a signature, but also because as you enter into it you assume responsibilities that you wouldn't have otherwise. If your girlfriend goes out and wrecks someone else's car you are not liable, but if it's your wife you are. So to see a marriage as not a contract is not dealing with reality. Of course it's not very romantic, but neither are all the sacrifices that are required to make a marriage work. I'm 100% with Toad that it is a subject that should be carefully considered, and based on my own experience from my first marriage I strongly feel that there should be limits to what a woman is entitled to if she didn't contribte to the creation of assets during the marriage. THat doesn't mean that she should walk away with nothing, but it's hard to understand why she should get more than half???????? And clearly the guy that brought it up before there ever was a relationship in the first place, and expected to get sole custody of the child was an idiot, IMHO.
i don't think that if you have a half a million dollars in the bank your new wife would expect you to give it to her, if you are marring a woman and you appraoch her tactfully I don't see where she would not understand that just because you have money it is hers to. A pre nuptial agreement might be a big deal here on paper but in reality the intelligent woman of Russia will agree they are marrying the man not the money and if they have a problem with that there you go. Move on to the next one! Again it is how you handle the situation.
A friend of mine taught me the value of fasting, I like to fast for long periods of time. I know what the benifits are and have been doing it for many years, there are many good reasons to fast but if I bring this up to anyone it becomes a big controversy so I stay silent about this subject. Let your attorney know your concerns and then make an appointment with her or him and take your future wife there and let them explain it to her and what she can expect if things do not work out. If the woman really loves you this will be of minor concern.
I quite agree wess......more so that most women...(not all I hasten to add) from the FSU are a lot less materialistic than their western counterparts and a loving and stable family is much more important to them than material wealth.At least that has been my experience thus far!
"....In my country, the vast majority of marriage laws are completely anti-husband, and get worse as time goes by. That is why men from US and other countries strive to find ways to protect assets they acquired previously like houses or savings accounts. Please understand some of those assets are needed to help support their children, elderly parents, charities or other financial responsibilities they may have....If any western man ever brings up this topic of discussion, please do not be offended. He is not accusing you of trying to take advantage of him. He is simply protecting himself from the unfair marriage laws, not you...."
This is how I present the topic of prenups to any FSU woman I may be interested in.
There are six (6) wonderful women I currently correspond with who agree completely with the things I explain about these and several other types of documents that are essential for a fairly organized marriage.
Only one woman, several months ago, rejected me because of the prenup topic. But then again, she said: "..I could never marry a man who refuses to put ALL of his wealth at my disposal, and he better have wealth to provide me with.."
Who needs or wants a woman like that? Not moi, that's for sure.
Guys, take note of this fact. The vast majority (yes, Pitchka babe included) do not understand the nature, concept and purpose of this and many other legal documents that are of common use in the west.
It is YOUR JOB to teach your FSU honey everything that is important to you in your way of life in a manner that helps her understand and accept.
How else do you expect her to learn?