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	Create New Topic   My Posts   My forum buddies   Invite friends   Private messages Russian brides > Main Forum > From Socialism to Selling Themselves Online: Out of the fire and into the frying pan for Russian women? Author Post JG Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 12/18/2003 4:59:36 PM   The United States and Former Soviet Union are countries which were enemies for the majority of the last century. I feel we may still know less about each other than we did then. I know I don't much more about Russia than I did as a teenager during the days of MAD (Mutual Assured Destruction). Does that make me a "typical" American? As a child of the 1960s and 1970s Cold War, I remember well how my teachers impressed upon my peers and me what the Russian people were like. They were portrayed as a ruthless, evil and suicidal lot. It was mostly propaganda, but the lessons of the Former Soviet Union's history should be addressed from my own perspective. I knew a number of veterans of World War Two who lived in the neighborhoods where I grew up. Overall, they held the Russians in the greatest disdain, second only to the Japanese. That is odd considering Russia was a U.S. ally. Even the German Wehrmacht ranked higher. Of course, these are only these men's opinions, but I am sure it is based on their experiences. And also, let’s take into account the strong anti-communist sentiments of the Western world at that time. These older men that I knew called them "Reds." I am not a historian, but instead a person who has varied life experiences. Along the way, I have mingled with people of varied races, colors, creeds and geographic origins. I have learned one thing: people are people. For a historical perspective, I cite the works of William Shakespeare. His writings are timeless because they show that despite centuries and technological advances, mankind hasn't changed. People still have the same emotions and habits, despite different trappings. We still love, cherish, laugh, cry hate, lie, mourn, cheat and steal. People of Shakespeare's time and the people of our time share this common bond as human beings, and it looks like we always will. Americans lie. Brits lie. Brazilians lie. And, of course, Russians lie. Welcome to the human race. But we must calculate for ourselves the degree of damage any type of lies or deceit would cause. When it comes to the emotional tolls, you can't put a price on a broken heart. But you can put a price on what would happen if you invested a tidy sum into a marriage plan with a Russian woman that turned out to be a scam. You will get your credit card or bank statements every month reflecting that amount. That damage is concrete, absolute, and irreversible. Or worse, there would be considerable financial and emotional hurt caused if the Russian bride has a plan to leave her American husband once she has established citizenship in the United States. And if it's the typical May-December romance, she can quickly go on the prowl for men her of own age. If that happened to me, I would be very hurt. But all in all, I would tell myself honestly that I should have seen it coming. (con't below) JG Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 12/18/2003 5:00:17 PM   Only time will tell the real success of any of those relationships. Every source I have seen (whether credible or not) does not say every one of these marriages doesn't work out, but only points out that the vast majority don't. Those are the odds. It's up to each man seeking such a marriage to hope his will be in that rare success percentile. Again, that is merely a hope. Of course, there are no guarantees in any relationships, but these Westerner-Russian marriages look like the least likely to succeed. I -- for one -- am extra careful considering those odds. I admit I am not a gambler (I go to casino hotels only because you can eat well and stay comfortably fairly cheaply). And what of the notorious Soviet leaders of the 20th Century? In history classes, I learned that Joseph Stalin ruthlessly persecuted his own people, especially ones "contaminated" by contact with Westerners. Unfairness to one's own people is a trademark of the Soviet Union in the 20th Century, if my recollection of its history serves me right. Why should they now extend a marked friendship to foreigners and trust of others who are not even their own people? From what I remember, former Soviet Premier Nikita Khrushchev told the Western world (mainly the United States) "We Will Bury You." Did they? Hardly. As it turned out, the Socialist rule couldn't even keep its own nation going, let alone put itself in a position to dominate the world. Talk was and still is cheap. I am sure the people of the Former Soviet Union know that all too well. To put things in its proper perspective, Khrushchev should have told his people that "We Will Bury Ourselves." That is what the Socialist rule did very well. So we can see the people of the Former Soviet Union know firsthand about being deceived. The Socialists promised a better way of life for the common people and didn't deliver. A real waste of 70 years and the potential of several generations of its citizens. If I were a native of the Former Soviet Union, I would feel very cheated by Communism. Under those conditions, think about the mindset that would develop if I understand anything about human nature (and it's time-honored companion, greed): Hey, it's every person for himself (or herself). "We got nothing before, but dang we're going to get it now! Regardless of what we have to do to get it." The Socialist society was built and supported by lies. Misinform and then scare the masses into blind loyalty were its mode of operation. (con't below) JG Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 12/18/2003 5:00:57 PM   There are people who would use that same idea to get what they want. No doubt a ritual as old as mankind itself: Lie about who they are, what they want, and lead people into thinking "follow me (or us, or whoever) and a utopia awaits you." Isn't that the same line handed down by Vladimir Lenin and his followers, one which proved a theory often doesn't work when it is tested in reality. Saying things people want to hear while cloaking the actual impetus is a great tool of public relations. I believe it's called "Damage Control" in the vernacular. On paper, the best Russian women's self description puts so many American women to shame, making the latter appear unloving and selfish. Now the countries of the Former Soviet Union are full of self-described honest, faithful and loyal women -- ones with no other ambition than to become domestic and marital slaves to Westerners they don't even know (many twice their age or greater), and all of this in an alien, faraway land they know little about. That picture seems wrong to me. After breaking the chains of a seven-decade rule of a repressive Socialist rule, it makes perfect sense to me (satirical) for the country to breed a new generation of young ladies who haven't learned from the mistakes of the past. The Russian people, slaves under Communist rule, now find no problem with becoming slaves under Capitalist rule. Their mothers and grandmothers, generations who lived under the iron fist of Joseph Stalin and "humanitarian rulers" like Khrushchev, seem to have no issue with the possibility their offspring may end up under the iron fist of some abusive, controlling husband in the West. Am I thinking too much, or maybe too little? What's wrong with this picture? Why, now -- suddenly -- have the people of the former Soviet Union changed so drastically? Could the same people who followed the Socialist teachings so blindly have the wisdom to adapt that proven technique to use to their advantage? I do not know anything for sure. But I do know that my heart and my wallet are two things I would hate to see emptied by false promises that this way is the best way for me to find the love I seek. (END) chipscher Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 12/18/2003 5:14:25 PM   Not every man in the united states is a slave driver. Governments lie, granted, but the people in the country are, for the most part, not representitave of that country and government. I, for one, strongly oppose what my government did in Iraq. The past is the past, we cannot change that. However, we can all look forward to a good future. When the USA was first started, we had many problems. We fought a war to break away from British rule, the constitution was drafted, but for a lon gtime, there was strife and pverty amongst our forefathres. Even though it has been, what, 10-12 years sicne the fall of Communisim, Russia is still trying to establish their own democratic society. Some say it is not working, some say it is, but they are not the bad people, they have changed their whole governmental structure, and over time, they will get things settled, their economy will get better, and everything will work out for the best for them. Getting back to your slave driver ideal, these women may have been brought up one way, but I am definatly not a slave driver. I just want a woman who thinks about love, and family more than she does a BMW and Prada handbag. That has proved very hard to find for me here, so I extended my search elsewhere. What is the problem with that? i cannot wait to see the look of joy in my future wifes face when I buy her her first car. When she gets a good job, when we buy a house together. I want my future wife to be happy, free, and full of love, not enslaved. There is a flip side to every coin, my friend, if there was no night, there could be no day. JG Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 12/18/2003 5:46:31 PM   Yes, chipscher, I agree and I share a similar wish. I also have too much respect for woman to even consider a slave or submissive type of relationship for my bride, regardless of her nationality. I have not nor ever will be abusive to anyone. That is just not me. I want a thinking, free-thinking life partner and friend. Someone who is not afraid to disagree. I do not want a domestic servant type. I cook, clean house, and do my own shopping quite well. If she wants to do some things herself, that's OK with me, too. It's her call. Yes, I too have daydreamed about how wonderful it would be to see someone get so happy about many of the things in American life often taken for granted. I also desire any spouse to be independent, and would encourage her to have a career and maybe even her own business in the United States if she wants to do that. But like I stated, I am hesitant about letting dreams have too much say in my life, because they can also cloud my objectivity. I am also saying I am not a wealthy man, nor do I even travel that much. Committing to a woman all the way across the world would be an investment both emotionally and financially, and I am just being careful of those aspects. But all I am doing is admitting to what little I know about the Russian way of life, and how such a person so accustomed to it would be ready to leave it. I am admitting that the Russians are people I know only of from what I have outlined above, and I am not making any judgment of them. I know their people must be tired of oppression and generally mistrustful of promises after the fall of Socialism, so why should they trust any of us? So I need to look at the other side: why I would trust them. Believe me, I would hope that the lady I am so interested in is for real. Yes, it would like a dream come true. But I must remember she would come from a world I do not have experience with, one I only know of from what I have described above. One where strife became too overwhelming and one still in transition, like you point out. Igolochka Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 12/18/2003 6:15:00 PM   JG Hardly there is a country without a blemish on its history (should I remember here how many millions natives were exterminated by the firstcomers to America?). What we had for over 70 years was not even communism as it is supposed to be. After all, it's the governments who have problems, not people (though some tend to be caught in the trap of false patriotism and propaganda). And then - why can't you find a woman for you in your long-established democratic society? Why don't they seem to have the values you are looking for an a partner? In honesty, I loathe when our gals marry an American just for 'better life'(hmm.. dubious point), but there are women who would never marry an American just because he is an American if that makes sense. At least I know one. KR Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 12/18/2003 7:13:23 PM   Some disparate comments: 1) Not having been part of the Roman Empire [or even the Byzantine Empire] there are some fundamental cultural differences between Russia and the so-called West; 2) On a person to person basis, fully aware of such differences and being duly careful and open-minded, warm relationships can be cultivated and maintained; 3) History is full of examples of an entire society being re-energized by the fall of a stagnant and repressive government, so the fact that Russia is in the throws of a cultural and societal revolution should not be a surprise. saridder Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 12/18/2003 9:25:18 PM   JG, it's time to burry the hatchet. I don't blame my behavior, attitudes or cultural mores on Truman, Eisenhower or any other current or past leader and no one else should use them as an excuse either. And no one should hold them against another whole race either. chipscher Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 12/18/2003 10:35:40 PM   Igolo, Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. People are also different. People search for their one soul mate, maybe JG, as was I, raised on old fashioned morals and values. I am chagrin to say that in America, that is very hard to find, with over 60% of the population getting divorced, i live in a family that was built on love, and family values. No one in my family has ever been divorced. I am searching for my soul mate as one who has family, love and moral civility as the basis for their upbringing. I have not been able to find that in America, so why not search elsewhere? This is a big world, and as teh adage goes "there is someone for everyone". Even if that someone lives halfway around the world. JG Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 12/19/2003 2:17:08 PM   Yes, people here bring up valid points. I am not being judgmental of any people, but merely pointing out myself as a Westerner knows little of the Russian world except what I have taught or told by others with some degree of experience. I am not trying to raise the hatchet, only pointing out that a group's history is what molds their experiences and shapes their outlook on things. The United States is no different. It has evolved as it has because of its history (i.e. experience). To me, that is also true of individuals. We touch fire for the first time and get burned. Experience tells us not to touch it again if we want to avoid harm. And I have an opinion, yes. That is all it is for whatever it's worth (maybe nothing). But that is what our society in the states is about. I feel bad in a way for these Russian women who should realize that the Western world is different from what they are used to. In the states, you have the freedom to make your own way. You have a right to disagree. Women are not inferior to men. nor should they allow themselves to be trained into thinking they are. They can realize that they are capable of standing on their own and should develop pride in such achievements. Why do you think I am hestitant of committing to someone from a world I know nothing about? I feel I stand the best chance of being burned. Why? Because I would the type of man who offers a woman her freedom, and would be everything in my power to support her in whatever she wanted to do. At first, a lady from another culture not used to that type of role might think that to be great. But think after a few years go by, after she is familiar with the language and operations of life in the United States. Think of the independence and free will offered by a man like me. Well, there are women who could develop the mindset that yes, they can be on their own. And they would dump me to do it. Some would say she would have to have a good reason to do this, mainly because I prove insufficient in some way. That may not be the case. It's a very big gamble, don't you think? I realize that these women's personalities and beliefs are molded by the world in which they live. After they live in the United States, do you think honestly that these women won't change in some way? Are you ready to accept a woman changing like that? I realize myself that such a woman will change, and again I would see that coming. One has the asset the risks of whether such a change would be for better or worse. (Like the old burlesque joke: "We got married for better or worse. I couldn't do any better and she couldn't do any worse.") To me, it takes generations to make significant progress in turning a society around. African Americans freed from slavery in 1865 were still seeking a measure of equality 100 years later. Social changes do not happen overnight or in the course of handful of years. I am surprised how many civil rights leaders want this change, but it has to come right now. They forget the deeply-ingrained lessons of history. It took hundreds of years for slavery to grow and be accepted, and it will take some time (maybe not that long) before the residuals of its existence are forever purged. It seems to me at times that some people would rather abandon the society then work to change it. Can't a number of these ladies see that? Why strive for things in the West when you can make efforts to do that in your own area? I may be wrong, but that tells me something about what type of existence they have. And I agree with chipscher. I feel I can find "someone" by just encountering them in everyday life, but that is not a true soulmate. Some women may emphasize the search for "Mr. Right," but actually seek "Mr. Right Now." I am well aware of that. Since I am 41 years and still youthful and fit, I am seeking a younger women for the purpose of having my own children should I wish. I have not met a woman my own age or older who can have children. Most of them have grown children, already, for cryiing out loud. In the United States, I have tried nationwide online dating over a good period of time. So far, no woman under age 25 is at all interested in a man over 40 (I guess unless she is golddigger, of course, but I have no gold to dig up). I am not wealthy, but I am a truly decent, caring and honest man. But in the United States, such a May-December age difference appears much more of social stigma than it is in the minds of numerous Russian ladies. And I may be shallow (I do not think so and neither do people you know me) in saying this, but yes, I would like an attractive wife. I feel she is suited to me well, since I am no ugly ducking either. What is wrong with wanting beautiful things? But the soulmate I am seeking would have inner beauty surpassing her external beauty. But the trueness of that type of personality trait will not out until it passes the test of time and situations. Adversity supposedly tests mettle, and you cannot be sure of its outcome until that happens. I admit that while these women may be selling themselves, so am I. We are both doing the same kind of thing. It's a risky proposition and one I cannot take too lighty. chipscher Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 12/20/2003 2:38:21 AM   From what I hear, most Russian woman, American Man marraiges end because the man treats her poorly, treats her with less respect, and treats her like she was a slave. In general, treats her in a way that most American girls would never put up with. I have not heard too many stories of a Russian lady coming here, and divorcing a few years later when she is able to stand on her own. If a Russian lady truly wanted to come here, she could, there are many visas that are not well known or advertised, and teh Government offers financil assistance to thiose that do come. When there is a will, there is a way, and if Russian women just wanted freedom, they could come here. Most are innocent, wonderful women just looking for their other half. jetmba. Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 12/20/2003 10:46:03 AM   Chipster: "...there are many visas that are not well known or advertised..."?!? How much advertising of visas have you seen? And could you enlighten us by telling us what kinds of visas you refer to? (Do they have names?) I beleive that Olga, our moderator, can confirm that availability of visas to young single Russian women, by themselves, is extremely limited. "If Russian women just wanted freedom, they could come here."?!? Perhaps you could do them all a favor and visit the former Soviet countries to inform the women of this great revelation. wtrav02 Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 12/20/2003 11:00:53 AM   Interesting thoughts! I may add: online dating = high risk + high expenditures = potential high reward. You're right in many of the points that you raised. We were all raised with the fear that one day the communists will throw a bomb and burry us all. We were all tought that Soviet Union was the empire of evil and it was indeed at the government level, i.e. at the communist party level. The people of Russia were taught the exact same that America is the evil and they needed to defend their country from us. After the end of cold war, more Russians than Americans abandoned the idea of evil against evil. Russians generally think highly of Americans, Americans trash the idea of Russians who can be part of a new world. It wasn't until the current Bush administration that the Russians were treated with some trust and respect. My personal experiences with the people of Russia are generally positive. You will be scammed in some occasions and overcharged, but in dollar terms you will end up paying less for better quality. Russia is not worse than any other third world country and has tremendous potential to reach developing nation status. I don't think Russian women are the way you describe them. They have brains and judgment. Even during the soviet era, people were not eating the crap that was fed to them by the media. They suspected that much of what was said to them was a bunch of lies. Communism didn't have the effect that you think it had on the society. If you want to analyze Russian culture, you have to go back further in the history of Russia. This country has never experienced democracy in any form in its entire history. The tsars governed Russia for many centuries. The tsar represented the strong man who mastered the country, the entity who took all decisions for the nation. This notion of the strong man who takes decisions is prevalent in Russian culture. Stalin was hated but also loved by Russians because he was strong and decisive. Russians like Putin these days because he is strong and decisive and because he loves his country. Russians are a nation who want to be led, to be told what to do, they want someone to take decisions for them. Same thing is true with Russian women. Their view of real man is a strong man physically and mentally, decisive, a man they can rely upon regardless of age, someone who can be passionate and compassionate. It sounds the traditional way and it is. In fact, communism promoted the equality between man and woman. Women were worthy no less than men and participated in all functions of the society, they were expected to work as hard as men did. Don't forget the first woman in space was Russian and women joined all kinds of men dominated activities during the soviet era. Check out American dating sites, it's the plague. Fat, ugly, old, leftovers, with twisted minds. Check out Russian dating sites. Beautiful women, young, fit, family minded. It's a no brainer. And you know something else. Check out the men who are chasing Russian gals (you can see pics at some galleries). 90% are average Joes at best, no American woman worth something would look at them. It's a big opportunity that I don't think will last for more than another decade. There is a faster transformation than you'd think going on in Russia in the economy and the society. Younger girls in the bigger cities can get jobs, are exposed to western type media and are getting spoiled just like girls in the west. They start realizing they don't need that strong man to take care of them and make decisions for themselves. You sound like you are looking for a Russian woman only for the purpose of reproduction with a younger woman. This is certainly your objective. You say you like self-minded, assertive American women. You can find the same in Russia, but she will be the kind of woman who will come here for the green card. I think you're looking for the spoiled kind of woman or the woman who is susceptive to getting spoiled. There is nothing wrong with this, but set your expectations straight. If you are going to marry a woman like this, you're increasing your risk and you may be up for a cold Russian shower. chipscher Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 12/20/2003 4:43:38 PM   To name 2, the J-6, and DV-2005. chipscher Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 12/20/2003 4:45:52 PM   If you want to know about Russia, and what it is like there for real, why not ask your lady? I find the ladies are very eager to tell about their country, history, etc. I recently found out the Christmas is nto celebrated too much, however the New Years Celebration is much like our Christmas celebration, with a "New Year Bush" and similar characters to Santa come for New Years. I find it fvery interesting to talk to a lady about her country. jetmba. Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 12/21/2003 1:51:15 PM   Hey Chipster: First of all the DV-2005 is a lottery program to get a green card. It is not a "not well known or advertised" visa at all. And apparently the "J-6 visa" is so exclusive that only YOU know about it. If you do a search using Google, the only time "J-6 visa" comes up is YOUR description of it in another thread on this forumn. chipscher Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 12/21/2003 4:43:36 PM   The J-6 is a visa offered to allow European students come to the USA to work as summer camp counselors. I am assuming most of us here are looking at younger women, most of them students at university, no? The visa is good June - October. I heard about it from a Russian travel agent who has used it personally himself, and I recieved more information from the US Consulate in Moscow. The applications are reviewed in November, with the acceptance in December. The only requirements is that the applicant be a student, and they have no criminal history. There are 2 major companies that run this program, Bunacamp, and Camp America. The corporations bear the cost of airfare, and the people stay at the camp, but there is a $500.00 application fee for the visa. As far as the Dv-2005, it IS a viable way to come here, with the only restriction being you not have a criminal history, and be a high school graduate (or have 2 years work ecxperience in a specialized field). Do a little homework and you will get some answers. jetmba. Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 12/21/2003 11:58:46 PM   The DV-2005 is a darn viable way to get here. Just like LOTTO is a darn viable way for me to be financially secure for the rest of my life. Okay the odds are a little better for the DV-2005 (1 in 160? or is it 1 out of 120? And since it is a program to encourage diversity (the "D" in DV-2005) many women from many countries aren't eligible anyway). And again, the J-6 is so obscure it isn't even listed on Google. (To anyone else who's reading this - look it up yourself). In any event it makes no sense to say that Russian women could easily get here by means of "not well known or advertised" visa programs, if they really wanted to. Its like saying that you could be rich if you really wanted to be - just put a dollar in the lottery oe several lotteries. "Where there is a will there is a way"??? (your words) Chipster - Be realistic. crashnsplash Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 12/22/2003 1:05:30 AM   I have looked into all these visas and read about other people's experiences. I read so much about visas looking for an easy way for her to come to America, my head felt like it was spinning. Don't know about you guys but I have come to the conclusion that I have no choice but to go to Russia myself to see her and to get the process of getting her here started. If anyone here knows an easier way I sure would like to know. jetmba. Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 12/22/2003 10:46:44 AM   I agree with you Crash. Going there and meeting her is the only way to do it. It bothers me that there are a lot of deluded guys out there who have some very funny ideas about a lot of things, including how easy it is for a Russian woman to get out of Eastern Europe on her own and the sincerity of Russian women who choose to look to the West for a potential marriage partner. I went to Eastern Europe, Odessa Ukraine actually, where I met some wonderful women, one of which I may eventually marry. Writing letters only shows no commitment and has great potential for deception on both sides. Does it cost a lot to go over there? Compared to writing letters alone, yes it does. But remember, we're talking about a wife here, your "second half", hopefully your lifelong partner. How much should she be worth to you? Only everything you have. (And trust me, it won't cost that much). 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