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	Create New Topic   My Posts   My forum buddies   Invite friends   Private messages Russian brides > Main Forum > 50 dead in Russian airliner crash Author Post lonelyranger1701 Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 11/17/2013 7:05:26 PM   http://news.yahoo.com/official-50-dead-russian-airliner-crash-164610279.htm l Official: 50 dead in Russian airliner crash MOSCOW (AP) — A Russian passenger airliner crashed Sunday night while trying to land at the airport in the city of Kazan and officials said all 50 people aboard were killed. The Boeing 737 belonging to Tatarstan Airlines crashed about 7:20 p.m. local time (1520 GMT; 10:20 a.m. EST). There were no immediate indications of what may have caused the crash. Weather in the city soon after the crash was reported to be light precipitation and winds of about 8 meters per second (18 mph). Kazan is about 720 kilometers (450 miles) east of Moscow, where the flight originated. A spokeswoman for the Emergencies Ministry, Irina Rossius, said there were 44 passengers and six crew members aboard and all had been killed. Russia's last plane crash came in January, when a Russian-made Tupolev belonging to Red Wings airline careered off the runway at Moscow's Vnukovo airport, rolled across a snowy field and slammed into the slope of a nearby highway, breaking into pieces and catching fire. Investigators say equipment failure caused the crash, which killed five people kiwinorth Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 11/18/2013 1:21:56 AM   one has to ask strangely who was on the plane? anyone polish, or govt opposition?? isn't it ridiculous how that stuff comes to mind first.. durak Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 11/18/2013 3:31:31 AM   @kiwi: I don't think it has any relevance to the crash, but Interfax reports three notables on the flight: В числе жертв крушения оказались 24-летний старший сын президента Татарстана Рустама Минниханова Ирек, глава республикан 089;кого управления ФСБ Александр Антонов, а также супруга спортивного комментатор 072; Романа Скворцова Эллина. Translation: Among the victims of the crash were Irek, the oldest son (age 24) of the Tatarstan's President Rustam Minnikhanov; Alexander Antonov, head of the FSB in Tatarstan; and also Ellina, the wife of sports commentator Roman Skvortsov. Tatarstan is a republic in the Russian Federation. FSB is the Russian internal security service (called KGB in later Soviet times). siberianbear Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 11/18/2013 11:00:30 AM   I think you are very near the point durak.my russian lady tells me jet was 23 years old,probably badly mantajned and a hint of corruption involved.by the way on my last post,she arrived home two days late and lost her job. ragingbull Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 11/19/2013 11:55:44 AM   I saw footage on TV of the crash. It hit ground at an almost 90 degree angle. durak Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 11/20/2013 12:23:16 AM   As a practical matter, for any readers concerned about the safety of air travel: Russia's largest airlines -- I'm thinking especially of Aeroflot and S7 (also known as Siberian Airlines) -- reportedly meet high (western-country) standards with regard to their safety practices, and have (in my opinion, as an amateur student of aviation safety) very good safety records. Note that it is common to hear about Aeroflot's bad safety record, but that is something of a question of name confusion -- the past crashes are not connected with the organization that flies under the name Aeroflot today. In contrast to these few major airlines, Russia (and other former Soviet countries) have many small airlines. There is probably a lot of safety variation among these small airlines, but taken altogether they have a lot of accidents for the volume of flights they operate: I think something like 5 to 10 times the accident rate of scheduled airlines in western countries. Again, to be practical, if you are flying a major airline in Russia, your likelihood of arriving safely is very good, and MUCH BETTER than if you made the same trip by surface transport. If you decide to use a small airline, you can think of it as something like skydiving or mountain climbing: your risk of dying is much greater than a usual day spent at home, but still the odds are very strong in your favor. durak Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 11/20/2013 12:27:05 AM   PS -- I just saw video of the Kazan crash. Very ugly. The Russian agency investigating the mishap has already looked at flight recorder data, and says that they flight crew mishandled the aircraft. I have read that the flight had an unusually small amount of experience at the controls. As is the norm for fatal airline accidents these days, investigation of the cause of the accident, and what needs to be done to prevent similar accidents in the future, will (in my opinion) probably go to the question of flight crew training. lonelyranger1701 Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 11/20/2013 2:22:58 AM   Durak,,, what I heard years ago about Russian safety records, is that the International flights were safe and up to western standards,,,,, but the local or regional flights were a far different story! Also,,, I wouldn’t always believe that it’s “pilot error“! Dead men tell no tales!! durak Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 11/20/2013 4:59:40 AM   @lonely: As far as I can see, it's the airline that makes the difference in Russia, not the distance of the destination. Although Aeroflot has a large international route system, and S7 also makes international flights (though not as many outside of the FSU), both airlines have extensive regimes of flights inside Russia, and between Russia and other FSU countries. Both airlines maintain high safety levels, for both shorter and longer flights. The danger in local flights, is due to a lot of them being flown by really sketchy airlines. For a funny example, I once considered visiting an industrial town north of Moscow. At the time, it was served by an airline named for the town's one giant factory -- and wikipedia listed that airline as having one jet! (They've now expanded to nine.) This airline may have an excellent safety regime, or maybe not -- but the high accident rate occurs among Russia's many small scattered airlines. __________________________________________________________________ ______ It isn't always pilot error -- but pilot error is a principal cause in something like 4/5 of air crashes. Flight data recorders and cockpit voice recorders are enormously valuable tools to understand what happened. They never lie, and are not prone to 'misremember' -- whether or not the flight crew have survived. Of course, it's possible that Russia's agency investigating the accident could falsify or distort the record, but I think this very unlikely. It actually would be difficult to get away with, and could be really damaging to the government involved if such fraud were ever uncovered (hint: Russia's airlines have no right whatever to fly to foreign countries without the express permission of the aviation authorities of those countries -- and that permission can be withdrawn at any moment). kiwinorth Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 11/20/2013 3:27:20 PM   this comment tickles me. 'and could be really damaging to the government involved' sorry Durak i'm going to play with it, no disrespect to you. in a perfect world that would be true, but sadly russia is no different to any country,, its actually worse. why do we commoners never get the truth. is the truth always harder to take or can it be very expensive for whom concerned,, definitely very troubling to whom was in control. sometimes collateral damage is most convenient, whats most convenient is dead pilots to carry on the conveniences. who gets to play with the black box,,,,, not me. i remember a NZ couple trying to find out why their son flow out of a american plane in his buckled up seat some years back when the side of a plane opened up around Honolulu. they were continuously given the cold shoulder to ridicules excuses of inadequate answers from the american airline. your government were no help, actually they were a fat zero of a help other then allowing a visitors visa to be issued to them,, its as if the airline set the rules in this game? they had to sell their lifes hard earn to venture off into a search past the airlines bull for answers (the actual truth). strangely in their investigations through america over a lengthy time visiting the airline head honchos they were able to steal a document from a desk which told all,,,, a faulty few dollar aluminum latch in the luggage doors under where he sat, this had been known for somes years prev it was inadequate it seems. these two people changed the outcome of the investigation and gave the world the truth of it as we know today. why could they not just say so in the beginning???? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_811 < br>we have had similiar cases of lies in NZ with similar carry ons which did have horrific government involvement in its lies, once again the convenient pilots got the blame. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_New_Zealand_Flight_901 that story is more appalling then the american flight. and now heres russia again, once again. sadly thats life for us cannon fodda.. with all respect, i just cannot believe russian investigations are better or even passable in giving a half adequate answers to common folk when our own countrys have pulled equal fast ones.,. durak Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 11/20/2013 4:09:53 PM   @kiwi: What I meant is, New Zealand (for example) allows Russian airliners to fly there on the basis of a safety certification. If country X is not satisfied that country Y operates its flights safely, then country X can say "airplanes operated by companies in country Y are not permitted to land at our airports." If a government agency falsified something like flight recorder data, and that falsification were discovered, then that countries system of certifying aviation safety would overshadowed by a dark cloud -- how can anyone know ANYTHING they said about their airlines is true? Other countries would feel pressured to decertify airlines from that country, whether they liked the idea or not. Imagine one day the headlines saying, "Russian airlines barred from 56 countries." ______________________________________________ By the way (this is responding more to lonely's point), the incentives are all the wrong direction. When a government wants to slant a crash investigation (this has happened many times, and is not the same thing as falsifying data), they want to blame the foreign manufacturer/operator/personnel, and say "our people/equipment worked perfectly, those damned foreigners are to blame." So if Russia wanted to make a "whitewash," they would say, "there was a defect in that lousy American jet, but our heroic Russian pilots did everything humanly possible." Instead, they are saying, "the foreign jet worked correctly, but the Russian pilots failed to control it properly." lonelyranger1701 Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 11/22/2013 2:03:18 AM   Durak,,, there might be a flaw in your reasoning. If they blame it on the plane’s manufacturer,,,, then that company is going to do everything possible to dispute that,,,, which means digging through everything,,, something Russia wouldn’t want! And,,,, these aircrafts are used by the majority of the airlines around the world,,,, if a problem comes up,,, everybody knows about it and the planes are grounded. Last year the Boeing “Dreamliner” had problems with their batteries heating up and causing fires,,,, Japan or China grounded their whole fleet. Also,,,, doesn’t Russia have a history of blaming the people,,, and not the company or government? If there is a problem somewhere on some thing,,,, people keep quiet so as to not get involved and blamed for it. I remember something from a movie,,, “K-19”,,, so I don’t really know if it’s true or not,,,, but it went like:,,,,, Did you know that another man, and not Yuri Gagarin was the first cosmonaut to orbit the earth?? This man and his family didn’t get any awards or recognition for it,,,, because he wasn’t able to hold his breath for 24 hours!!! Scorpio1951 Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 12/2/2013 1:33:36 PM   This crash doesn't surprise me. I flew oon Tartarstan Airlines from Moscow to Naberezhny Chelny twice in 2008. It was on a Russian built aircraft. It was creaky and felt lucky to live through it. We even landed in the snow in one piece. There have been a number of airline crashes inside Russia due to different causes. But I imagine that poor maintenance in a financially strapped country has had something to do with some of the crashes. dcv Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 12/13/2013 10:33:41 AM   Russia now surpasses even the Democratic Republic of Congo in the number of plane crash fatalities this year. One hundred and twenty people have been killed in eight fatal accidents - all of them in Russian-built aircraft. http://news.sky.com/story/895025/russia-now-worlds-most-risky -place-to-fly durak Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 12/13/2013 4:04:29 PM   Note: The article linked by dcv is more than two years old. While it's an interesting read, the author doesn't show an understanding of aviation safety. Comparing total fatalities between countries is a very poor way to understand how their aviation systems compare in safety. A more useful comparison would be fatalities per airline departure. Of course, the crash this thread is about, was of a US-built airliner. ragingbull Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 12/13/2013 9:03:17 PM   "Comparing total fatalities between countries is a very poor way to understand how their aviation systems compare in safety. A more useful comparison would be fatalities per airline departure." I would imagine the US would have more departures than Russia and certainly, Congo. You are then saying that one should ignore the fact that Russia and Congo have less departures and more fatalities? Isn't airline maintenance, pilot training and how old planes are different by countries or are they all the same? kiwinorth Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 12/13/2013 10:24:10 PM   the one that always comes to my mind every time theres a plane crash with a russian plane or their pilots is the crash that caused the Polish prime ministers death and the wife from memory, plus many of the polish govt cabinet. even that outcome was,,,,,,,,,,,,, "pilot error" reported by both country's,, hmmmmmmmm well i think a little different. way to convenient over a very serious incident from the past, which russia is still playing ignore and it will go away crap over. the outcome of the crash report was what we wanted to hear, not what we think. its hard to trust a country who subdues its country by bull and also the back door deals that go on by they and all our "ones that know best" (govts) or persons with clout for the good of man kind supposedly. durak Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 12/14/2013 4:32:01 AM   @kiwi: I'm no aviation expert or professional, but I have studied air safety as a matter of personal interest for many years, and think that I've come to understand some of the basics. In scheduled airline operations, the great majority of incidents/accidents are attributed to personnel error. The critical technical systems are so reliable, and the rules and procedures so strongly safety-biased, that the discipline and attention of cockpit crew are left as the weakest link in the chain. Situations completely beyond the control of the flight crew sometimes happen -- a horrifying example was an Air Alaska jet (MD-83) which suffered a gross mechanical failure in 2000, that rendered the plane impossible to control. Fortunately, this kind of accident has become very rare -- and even in that case, it would not have occurred had Air Alaska maintenance personnel followed McDonnell Douglas maintenance procedures; the equipment and (manufacturer's) rules were sound, but not the people. Even more than 50 years ago in US military aircraft operations (which were MUCH more dangerous than civil aviation today), investigators found that a great proportion of accidents resulted from poor decision making by pilots. The Russian investigative body (MAK) was quick to attribute the 737 crash to its RUSSIAN pilots, and did not blame the foreign (US-made) jet. Isn't that some sign of their impartiality? What the hell would they have been whitewashing? I have no patience with woo-woo conspiracy theories. Yes, FSU governments are staggeringly corrupt. But as far as I know, MAK does its job with professionalism. It's actually not in the interest of any industrial country, to conceal or distort aviation safety information: in the big picture, the cost far exceeds any possible benefits. And airline operations are so international in these times, that nothing "swept under the rug" is likely to remain hidden. Yes, MAK blamed the Polish pilots for the Tu-154 crash that killed the Prime Minister. The Polish flight crew elected to make an approach to an airport (LNX/XUBS) that had no systems allowing safe landing under the visibility conditions that existed at that time, after being advised by Air Traffic Control that there were "no conditions for landing." The Polish government objected bitterly to the MAK accident report, but as far as I know, they did not dispute that: • published airport information disclosed that it had no instrument landing system in operation • the minimum visibility for landing was published as 1000 metres • the visibility at the time was 400 metres, of which the flight crew was advised • ATC informed the flight crew that conditions were not suitable for landing • there was no evidence that the airplane failed to perform as commanded • there was no evidence that the flight crew was not in control of the aircraft If these statements are true, then what do you think was the primary cause of the crash? The Polish Tu-154 crash is actually an unusually stark example of pilot error. There were strict, well-known black & white (no judgment call required AT ALL) guidelines stating conditions for safe landing. Either conditions were safe, or they weren't. An average 10-year-old would be able to digest the airport minimums and the ATC reports, and tell you whether or not it was safe to fly into the airport. PS I am not an apologist for the horrible government of Russia (or any other government, for that matter). I grieve over many of the actions of FSU governments. If I had any evidence that MAK falsifies accident investigation reports, I would be eager to denounce them. Even Nazi Germany probably issued the most accurate rainfall statistics they could -- just because a government is crooked, doesn't mean that everything they say is fraudulent. kiwinorth Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 12/15/2013 4:39:58 PM   thats whats funny able all this stuff,, if one thinks different they are wako conspiracy theorist:) i'm not going to answer your question Durak directly but slightly repeat what i have said. the corruptible components to any industry is always there waiting. when it involves political ramifications things are done in similar ways as before but are far more difficult to weed out it seems.. either we are knowledgeable in certain events, history and the evolving ramifications or not, i have my reasons why i think such about a certain flight. this type of thought (conspiracy theorist) has no blame to ones theory but absolute blame to the powers of be that dont give the relevant information (to their public) as they should over and over. like a childs exsplanation to something we often start finding holes in their storys and then they never answer a straight question. even your government Durak has done some pretty interesting to down right dirty stuff to your own, i can name off numerous events that have the most ridiculous outcomes. the biggest to date still maybe the Kennedy assassination and the no tell policy that still follows such today.. even the info received in NZ from that event at that time is still a mystery, the time lines just dont add up. i would rather discuss how the industry played games around flight 811 as been quoted. that one is far easier to discuss then any FSU flight, lucky for us its very open to public and criticism now. how dose one explain the white wash they tried to pull on family's of 11-12 persons who lost their lives. your idea theres a perfect and honest system in place just doesn't cut it. yes these investigative people are supposedly our keeper of decency and really in the end to keep us informed,,,,,,,,, yeah right. so how dose such a industry allowed a flat fat stuff around of answers that blanketed flight 811? today we know the facts around this event, not by the means of a govt or none govt commercial investigative body but only because of a parent of the deceased who stole documents from the airline some years later. i wonder at that time if they were classed as saints of decency or conspiracy theorist before that moment? actually where were the other familys of the lost from 811, did they except the word of the commercial investigative body or airline with a moan and grudge but what can you do as we mass's do so often. those people today durak would take your idea of a open book no stuff around answers as ludicrous. the airobus flight 901 i mentioned should have brought down a government here, but yeah corruption is sweet thing for a few.. only of late the pilots of that flight have been exonerated. interesting most of us already new that down here, but i'm sure you have no idea what i'm on about with that one so possibly a bad example. as you i follow certain things,, my feelings of a particular flight tell me something is far from right. it could be anything from a government body not caring for the safety to something very dirty, who knows by the way, it was common place to land planes in that condition at that airport,, i'm not saying it was not dangerous or even protocol. but this was a very special plane in what it carried. also i'm not going to give a history lesson to whom that dont know or care on this event and what surrounded it, why tensions were there and what Poland wanted from Moscow. i'm sure you know what i speak of to some point, but as we know political tensions were building up with Poland and Russia, then to top it off, that visit. all in front of the eyes of the world,, this was becoming a massive boil on Moscows backside. interesting how the tensions died away a thousand deaths with the crash. moscow must be feeling better for its little part in not taking 'duty of care' with these particular people. lets say it was real dirty. theres a famous quote that really says a lot from a classic American film,, 'A Few Good Men' "you can't handle the truth" its very American:) and possibly very true to many cases around the world today and yesterday. there are at times i'm guessing things that have to be swept under the rug if investigators found it dirty,,, i guess its a unanimous decision of many a powerful people i am sure. this could be proven to be done easy by my top examples of flight 811 and 901 in this industry. look at the blatant assassination of Archuke Franz Ferdinand, it became a world event that killed millions including my ancestors and maybe some others of this forum. do we need such again, the ramifications of something that dirty is to big,, sometimes the truth is to much for whats rightfully needs doing. but thats a true conspiracy theory, just for Durak since you like them so much:). just rather convenient how it all turned out. we here get charged for not giving appropriate 'duty of care' in a car accident or what ever. duty of care,,,, its very relevant to this case. durak Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 12/15/2013 6:36:33 PM   @kiwi: I'm not familiar with the investigation of ANZ901. As to UA811, I have looked at both of the NTSB Aircraft Accident Reports. There are two (unusually), because when the first was issued, the cargo door had not been found and was not expected to be recovered. When the door was recovered from the sea floor and available for examination of its latches, NTSB revised its analysis, and issued a second AAR superseding the first. Both of the reports identify, as a contributing cause, "a deficiency in the design of the cargo door locking mechanisms." What changed between the two reports, was the NTSB finding of the nature of that deficiency. I don't know the story, of what happened in New Zealand. Do people there believe the NTSB was wrong about UA811? If the US government made a fraudulent report, whom were they protecting? I'm not being argumentative here ... I sincerely don't know where the government whitewash is supposed to have happened -- and who the government was protecting? Since both reports blame the manufacturer, they don't seem to have been protecting Boeing. ______________________________________________ PS I work as an engineer. When you have to make things function, with your success at stake, you learn that opinions, public sentiment, emotions, ideologies and politics can't guide you to Truth about the material world. As the distinguished physicist Richard Feynman said, “For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled.” The laws of physics apply everywhere in the universe, without ever taking a holiday for even one an infinitesimal fraction of a second. There are no exceptions. In the field of aviation, people who don't respect this are rewarded with brutally punishing lessons, usually sooner rather than later. Your Reply: Your name:   New Registration Password:   Forgot password?   refresh Code:   Russian brides > Main Forum > 50 dead in Russian airliner crash
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