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	Create New Topic   My Posts   My forum buddies   Invite friends   Private messages Russian brides > Main Forum > Victory Day Author Post wtrav02 Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 5/10/2005 6:18:14 PM   You had no idea? America was built on the slaughter of the native population, America's CIA nurtured and financed tens of tyrannical dictatorships across Latin America, Asia and Europe during the cold war (Chile, Argentina, Philippines, Greece, Cyprus and tens others), America invaded Iraq and financed coups in Ukraine and Kyrgyzstan to boost its interests. Same dirty past have other imperial powers including Russia, Britain, France, and so on. It's unfair to say communism and national socialism was to blame for all. All imperial powers are now gone or weakened and only one remains that is still in a position to re-shape the world. I just hope we are not in a forum ten years from now talking about the atrocities that were committed or induced by our country. Regarding guns ...::))) -- why would anyone need assault weapons? what happened to bib guns for your duck hunting expeditions? N()R Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 5/10/2005 6:54:21 PM   They burned our houses, They killed our men, Let our hearts beat again and again Let our hearts fight, with hard and painful beats They burned our houses They did it today They burned our houses, They killed our men, Behind everyone that died will there be thousands again Thousands is gathered proud and naked in spite Oh, dead friends, We will not lose this fight! N()R nasfan6 Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 5/10/2005 8:59:07 PM   Wtrav02 Define assault weapons? In the Navy I carried a .45 and a 870 wingmaster riot shotgun. Are those assault weapons? I think a persons right to bear arms should not be legislated to the style? Does a criminal really care if he has an illegal weapon? Take example of the Bank Robbery in LA a few years ago, the robbers had more firepower than the law enforcement. Assault weapons ban did a lot there. No put it all and make it a level playing field for citizens, police and criminals, and then the criminals will take a second thought about who they victimize. Peace through superior firepower. scottlf Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 5/10/2005 9:07:52 PM   Yep, and try addressing the fundemental cause, and not the "symptom". nasfan6 Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 5/11/2005 12:28:03 AM   Another home run for Scottie!!! wtrav02 Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 5/11/2005 4:16:49 AM   Nas, I admit I know next to nothing about fire arms. Shame on me I shot at a bird once (no recollection what kind), hit the branch of a tree instead (shame because of the act of shooting the bird for fun, not for the result:). Don't believe people need guns to protect themselves. The way I read what you wrote is that we should all, citizens, police and criminals, rush to acquire as many weapons as we can and that will result in some sort of balance of power. Let me say first I think criminals will outpace all others in acquiring sophisticated weapons, and second this will eventually create a society where you will only be sucure if you have twenty armed guards around you and a bradley for transportation. I think all guns should be banned. Citizens have no need to carry guns, that's why we have law enforcement to protect us. It is no secret the constitution is outdated. It was created in the era of self defense, not only in America but elsewhere in the world. There were times a long time ago that people of every nation had rifles and knives in their houses because law enforcement was not sufficient. However, they did not all of these nations make laws to constitute citizens' right to own guns. I and millions others think the constitution must change with regard to ownership of fire arms, but good luck to us:) Of course there are millions on the other side who own guns and cannot live without them, so it becomes a political issue and we saw last election how this issue can weigh even in an presidential election. Scott, I hope by fundamental cause you mean crime itself. How can you address crime when you allow them to put guns in the hands of little kids, don't you create criminals? murder is a crime, isn't it? N()R, those for whom the song was written have already lost the fight. N()R Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 5/11/2005 5:20:08 AM   wtrav, I am not so sure they have, the text is just as up to date today as it was 60 years ago. It can be used in many settings.. e.g. 9/11, terror and war-situations all over the world that actually happens today as we speak... I borrowed two lines from the writer Inger Hagerup, (They burned our houses, they killed our men) the rest I have written and modified in English. Personally I think this poem is not locked to a special period of time or event, it could be yesterday, today or also tomorrows current actions of terror and war. N()R nasfan6 Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 5/11/2005 6:23:16 AM   Wtrav02 Banning an armed citizenry, is in the same vein of the topic we are talking about. When the communists and Nazi's came to power the first thing they did was disarm the citizenry. A defenseless public leads to despotic and totalatarianistic regimes. Typical response time for law enforcement is 3 minutes or more depending on the area you live in. Many things can happen in three minutes and in the stealth of the night maybe longer. As far as the constitution is outdated, it is still way ahead of it's time today. Unfortunately we do not follow the constitution and that is what plagues our country to this day. The constitution was created to limit federal power not to enhance it, Refer to the ninth and tenth amendments. Our forefathers saw the danger of a powerful central government and gave us the ability to limit that power. No need to change it, it is not a living document, but to follow it to the letter as it was written. An elected legislature can trample a mans rights as easy as a king or dictator can. Every time a new law is created certain freedoms are taken away. I don't need my government to do anything for me. They shouldn't be involved with raising or educating my children or paying for them in anyway. Wtrav02, you're an intelligent guy, if you have time read the federalist and anti federalist papers and that will enlighten you very much on the constitution and what it was created to do. Those books are a blueprint of the intent of our freedoms. Later Mike scottlf Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 5/11/2005 5:44:43 PM   Mike, Some of these are a bit over the top, but some are right on the money. <sarcasm on> <a href=http://www.fortliberty.org/patriotic-humor/40Reasons.shtml>40 Reasons to Support Gun Control</a> scottlf Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 5/11/2005 5:45:28 PM   Okay, wouldn't accept a HTML link. Just go here: http://www.fortliberty.org/patriotic-humor/40Reasons.shtml unclebuck Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 5/12/2005 5:21:11 PM   The fundamental problem is in the hearts of men! Change the focus and change the picture! Guns keep the wolves away! spirittraveller Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 5/12/2005 9:04:21 PM   This is a really great thread. Well written Scott!! And great addendums by Worldtraveller and Felicedate. I love history,and as has been noticed by all--it is often written only to patriate children in school. There is nothing new about the slaughter. President Bush and Tony Blair think Churchill was a hero,and perhaps he was,but he also made statements about native Americans and "lesser" breeds of people which were similiarly opined by Hitler. Churchill was a believer in chemical warfare also.His part in the bombing of Berlin and Dresden was criminal. Our own president Roosevelt,and Eisenhower,who was general at that time, allowed internment camps which added to the millions of WW2 deaths of starvation. SOme of these camps held women the same way as men-in open fields surrounded by fence.It should be remembered also that Italy was punished for their alliance too. History really only shows the aftermath of Aushwitz and Buchenwald. But historically it is not only slaughter on a large scale. For example,the great Sioux nation were inhabitants of areas in Nebraska/Colorado,but made a push west to claim the area near the Black Hills as their own-driving out the earlier squatters. This great flexing of muscle has been active since the Neanderthals were driven out of existence by Cro Magnon. It is sad that modern day Germany is a "cult of guilt" It is as if the present generation has been made accountable for the actions of their grandfathers. We probably do not read enough about the great resistance groups in Germany during the war. To come a little closer to home-the American Civil war and the stupendous deaths in just one day on so many different battlefields! These fields of extermination are silent monuments to the incredible legacy of hate that men have for one another--even brothers and cousins killing each other. There can be no Great Patriotism when men forget diplomacy and raise their arsenals in genocidal,self aggrandizing fury. scottlf Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 5/12/2005 10:55:43 PM   I suspect you will like the following quote, then. It is not the purpose of education to produce good citizens, but to help children become successful human beings. The former is properly identified as "indoctrination" and, when undertaken at the taxpayers' expense, should be illegal. - L. Neil Smith spirittraveller Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 5/12/2005 11:30:49 PM   this reminds me of a great book called " For the Sake of all Living things"- by a photojounalist in Vietnam who wrote of the indoctrination by violence,torture,and brainwashing, of the millions of young Northern Vietnamese children to press them into service. The small villages of Vietnam would be pillaged by the V.C-the mayor publicly executed by cruel means-such as an ice-pick through the brain.Many of the cultural icons ( grandfathers) of the villages would be publicly executed in front of their families. Then the youth of these small farm hamlets would be force marched and upon arrival to the training facilities,buried above ground in a coffin type enclosure,and given repeated instructions to accept their new "party'names,and forget their families and cultural heritage as farmers. The brainwashing,political litiny,and propaganda was so severe that many would forget their old identities,and actually help scourge communities that held their own relatives. It is a wicked,legal subterfuge of idealisms. Many hundreds of varieties of rice which had passed down through generations of gentle farmers disappeared through the US armies policy of kill the food source,kill the enemy. Herds of deer-like animals are now thought to be extinct from the senseless shoot -at-anything -that moves policies. These killings fields of Cambodia have tapered off in their genocidal tyranny,but even after the US was completely evacuated in 1975,the wholesale slaughter continued with millions of people being killed each year. Although this country has reopened the doors of diplomacy once again with Vietnam,the legacy of pain continues,with unexploded minefields,ethic violence ( which includes scores of kidnapping/abduction/murders ) and unresolved civil struggles. spirittraveller Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 5/12/2005 11:35:33 PM   One of my favorite stories is from the famous book "The Microbe Hunters" It recounts the US armies volunteer tested experimentation with GIs who would subject thenselves to the tstetse fly and become contaminated with yellow fever.It was a death sentence each time with these guinea pigs and some of the doctors as well. As mentioned before-no single country has the record for being the least murderous-at least where the superpowers are concerned spirittraveller Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 5/12/2005 11:40:58 PM   We have all heard about the suffereing of Japanese when they were forced into labor camps. The flipside is some of the aged American vets from WW2 who formed a class action against Japan for the atrocities suffered against the Geneva Convention. Many an old timer after 50 years of nightmares still breaks down and cries when recalling the vicious dehumanization and tortue of their buddies. These old veterans of foreign wars were fought by who? A team of American lawyers representing the best interest of Japan. Worldtraveller Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 5/13/2005 5:51:02 AM   Spirit, my big respect to your knowledge! Yes, during WWII probably no any nation being nvolved in the war, was completely accurate. But what counts is, that the number of victims in this war have been bigger than ever before and also counts, that with modern medias you cannot forget a war as easy, as it was before. Churchill and his famous Harris can be made guilty for the bombing massacre of Dresden. It is difficult to say, if it can be excused or not. The fact is, that they knew about the massacres of Nazis towards Jews and sowjetunion civil population. You use an interesting phrase "cult of guilt". Right, it seems to exist. For me personally I do not see any reason to feel guilty about what happened 60 years ago. How long any following generation should feel guilty and responsible? Is there any limit of time? We still have the burden of paying compensation every year to victims of WWII in countries of former USSR. And also big money to Israel. It should be mentioned by the way, that it have been ukrainians, who stole big portions of money, who was dedicated for old people in Ukraina, who were forced to work in nazi labour camps in WWII. I am afraid about one possible result: if you will be remembered every year again about the cruelties, which happended in past, sooner or later you will dislike and hate to hear it again and again...... This was my reason, why I acted so emotionally about that Victory-Day-Parade in Moscow. They havenīt learned anything from the past. Despite the fact, that Germany (together with Japan) made the biggest atrocities during war, it should not be forgotten, that for example jewish refugees often havnīt been allowed to enter the UK, that the President of Polonia congratulated Hitler (before starting WWII) for beginning to solve the jewish question, that most of the concentration-camp guards have been non-germans, doing this job on free will. And as far as I know, even during WWII in public busses in the USA there have been different sections for white and black travellers....... Anyway: I see the history in WWII as it was, but I do not feel guilty for something, which I havnīt done. WT Ptichka Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 5/13/2005 7:03:44 AM   The only reason which seams good for me, to have such parades, is just to commemorate the people who suffered, died, and those who are still alive, because they did a great thing to protect the country! My great grandmother and my grandmother told me lots of awful stories about actions of the USSR army, and how good Germans treated them. They had a couple of Germans living in their house, and these Germans helped about everything, they brought coal, food, bread... But my great grandmother was never sorry that Germans lost that war! The only thing she was sorry about, is that Ukraine didn't get the independence! By the way if Hitler gave the land to the people in Ukraine...who knows what would be the outcome...as many people greated him and German army like "rescuers" from the USSR.... scottlf Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 5/13/2005 8:18:58 AM   Great to hear your input on this, as always, Ptichka. Worldtraveller Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 5/13/2005 8:36:36 AM   Ptichka, theories about the past are nothing else then: if, when, maybe and so on. It was nothing else than arrogance of german leadership in 1941/42 to ignore the desire for freedom of the ukrainian population. They made the big psychological mistake not to act like "rescuers". But even if so, sooner or later the result what have been the same as it happened: Ukraina was mainly considered to become a colony for german farmers to produce agricultural products. By the way: with the help of local persons (especially a fanatic belorussian anticommunist, who even later was very active with his soldiers in destroying the ghetto of Warsaw), in Belorussia such first colonies have been established. Ptichka, if Hitler would have won the war, for Ukraina it would have been nothing else then the replacing of one dictator with another one.... I think once we already touched this topic: many thousands of prisoned ukrainian soldiers prefered after the WWII to stay in Germany, because they knew their fate to be deported to Siberia after having returned back home to Ukraina. Ukraina is now independent and I wish all the luck to your so often tortured country. WT Your Reply: Your name:   New Registration Password:   Forgot password?   refresh Code:   Russian brides > Main Forum > Victory Day
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