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	Create New Topic   My Posts   My forum buddies   Invite friends   Private messages Russian brides > Main Forum > A Goodbye to my Ukrainian girl Part 1 Author Post sams Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 7/18/2009 6:54:26 AM   Gentlemen, This is my final post. Thank you all for your insights, they have helped significantly. Julian, I am sure you find my psychology bizarre. I probably come across as intelligent yet I spent a whole damned year living in a world of pathetic stupidity and delusion. I did this to myself when I was living in a city with plenty of available, beautiful, intelligent women one of which could have been the love of my life. To you, this dichotomy does not make sense, so must be contrived. The ending of the first paragraph of my first post is the best explanation I have. Nothing more I can say on the subject. Thanks Adman. I want to believe in love at first sight......I cannot let go of that. Having lived in Ukraine for over a year, what I can talk about is other experiences and insights I gained. Despite the limitations of money and resources, the Soviet based education system is good. On average it produces intelligent and cultured people. Most urban dwellers have a higher education which maybe a university or vocational training. Since I had plenty of free time (sic!), I enrolled myself at a local university which had some English based science classes. I also saw first hand the teachers at Natalis daughter’s school. The teachers were remarkable. Not only did they have deep subject knowledge but they actually taught. The teachers sensed when the class or individual students had trouble with concepts and they proactively changed things until the class understood. I wished I had these people as my teachers at high school and university. The dark side is that the teachers get paid a state salary which is less then $200 a month. This encourages corruption. Those who do not want to learn can bribe teachers to get good marks on assignments and exams. Graduating and getting the certificate involves some level of unofficial payments. They are also very hard working. You will see the same people working the small shops and market stalls from 8am to 11pm 6-7 days a week. Just talk to workers in al types of businesses, many work 6 days a week 12 hour days. They do this for salaries which range no more then $200-$300/month (up to $500 in Kiev and other major cities). These low salaries encourage corruption. For a short time I rented an office in the city center. It was shared with an employment agency. I saw how employees diverted payments into their pockets. If there is an opportunity to steal, it will be taken. sams Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 7/18/2009 6:55:13 AM   The low salaries forces families to live together in small apartments. Children stay home well into adulthood. Many get married and have to live with the family. This has resulted in very strong family values. To live together in such close quarters you have to learn to adapt and accept and tolerate. The family bonds are strong. A dark side is that there are no laws against underage drinking or smoking. You will see 14 year olds with a bottle, drunk. Alcohol and cigarettes are cheap. You will see most teenagers, girls and boys, smoking and drinking in the streets. Many women become providers of the family because the husband continues these habits while they become mothers and responsible for the family. To counter this, I saw so many kids on the streets and open air concerts showing their fantastic talents. Once there was a group of about twenty kids on a street, ranging from 5-16 years, taking turns break dancing. Any one of them could have entered talent contests in the West. The 5 year old would have been a star. Having trudged the local galleries many times, I saw some remarkable works of art (at least to my eyes). Certainly I couldn’t afford to buy art of this quality in the west. I got close to one artist, Sergey Sinelnikov, who I am trying to help promote. I setup his website on www.sergeyartist.com. He is also on deviantart.com where you can buy posters. This environment produces women who are intelligent, cultured, hard working and with strong family values. But they know how to look after themselves and will have no hesitation in using anyone to make money or gain in some way. Weak men will be used, abused and discarded. I met and heard of plenty of women enjoying their divorce settlements from foreign men. Unless you are 101% sure that the woman loves you, do not marry. She will leave you immediately she can get back to her home loaded with your cash. If she does love you, the bond prevents her from bolting. The question is how long will that bond last? I think it is an uphill struggle and certainly a gamble. But then marriage is also a gamble in the west with pretty bad odds…..with an FSU girl, you can have a beautiful, intelligent woman at your side for a time. Just know that this time is only a window in her life. Regarding age difference. Just look at Russian and Ukrainian personals sites (e.g. www.flirt.com.ua). The only young women looking for men in the 30-50 age range are hookers. Age difference of 5 years is normal. Anything else is an exception. If you get someone 10+ years younger, you are the sugar daddy which they can’t get in their home country. Accept the fact that you will have them for a time and have to say goodbye. Regarding online sites for FSU women. Many women on there have become addicts. Some not only make money responding to letters, but they get a high from the hundreds of letters they receive (just look at the fiance.com stats). One female friend with a local long term relationship posted her profile every time she had a row with her boyfriend. She loved the attention from all those foreign suckers. They say that a relationship with a prostitute will never work because you can never get the hooker out of her. I think the same applies to women who have been on these sites long term. You will never get the allure of these sites out of their blood. If you truly want to pursue an FSU woman, I suggest you live there for a month or more. Hire an interpreter for a few days. Place personal ads in local papers, local online websites. Through him/her get introduced to other people. Goto the Gym, join sports clubs. Ukrainian women are not shy, if they like the look of you, they will come after you. Its easy to get a date with amazing women just because of the novelty of a foreign man. My overall impression was that Ukrainians have a great future. When the politics stabilizes and the corruption reduces to a level that it doesn’t hurt the business climate, they will fly. Goodluck to all you hunters of love in the FSU, some of you have helped me here, I hope my story helps others. I hope soon I get Natali out of my blood. I do learn from mistakes and it will be my time to fly……….. Rag'n'Bull Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 7/18/2009 8:09:37 AM   (Regarding age difference. Just look at Russian and Ukrainian personals sites (e.g. www.flirt.com.ua). The only young women looking for men in the 30-50 age range are hookers.) sams, You have just let yourself down perhaps exposing yourself as to how you believed you fell in love during a lunch. No guy in his right mind would look for a serious and sincere minded lady on a site calling itself 'flirt', what the word 'flirt' actually means is to behave playfully in a sexually enticing manner and/or experiment casually with an idea or activity. And, it appears, that's exactly what you, believe, you managed to fall in love with, a 'flirter'! And if you think all young ladies, perhaps in the 20's, looking for a guy of 30+ are hookers well that just displays your naivity and you really do need to get out more, end of story. Harvey Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 7/18/2009 10:55:35 AM   10-4 sams Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 7/18/2009 1:30:30 PM   I WILL post corrections: Martin, She was an agency girl. A local agency which has now shut down. After the break up, saw her long history on the internet. At least 6 years. Supposedly I was the first foreign man to meet in person. Regarding age. Flirt.com is a pseudonym for mamba.ru which is I believe the biggest personals sites in Russia/Ukraine. Not just for "players". Every girl I met had a local boyfriend who was within a few years of her own age. Most couples were of a similar age. Just take a look at couples in Kiev or any city. That is how I drew my conclusions. sams Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 7/18/2009 1:39:36 PM   Another correction: Calling all women looking for guys 10+ years older as hookers is disrespectful. I am wrong and I apologise. baron555 Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 7/18/2009 1:52:30 PM   If you get someone 10+ years younger, you are the sugar daddy which they can’t get in their home country. I disagree. I want to believe in love at first sight......I cannot let go of that. You will never fall in true mutual love. thenorwegian Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 7/18/2009 3:53:07 PM   thanks for your story sams - it is very well written, honest and truthful with a lot of useful information and good reflexions about the Ukraine society and woman - hope only as you that it will help some to understand the reality about dating in Ukraine. sams Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 7/18/2009 4:06:49 PM   I apologise if I offended anyone re my hooker comments. Not the best comparison to get my point across. 10-7 dansing Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 7/18/2009 8:35:16 PM   good luck sam , ignore what people say here to you they are people with no real idea about love or relationship or women its why they come to a place like this to get advice . i fell in love in about 3 minutes with a fsu girl the first time i saw her.its very posible . as soon as she placed her hands on my head to cut my hair.i knew it was true from the very first moment . over the years our love got stronger and stronger evern through some really terrible hard times it still grew stronger every day , it never went back we never had one single bad time as far as our relationship . russia ukraine i think the same all "shit" . some things are terrible some things are really good though ,a place is what you make it . people are people girls are girls .. same same in all countries . but living there i can see how and why girls go to live with any hopeless desperate man from the west. it is abnormal to see a couple with a big age diference in russia . you fell in love .. its fine .. she was not seriouse and waste your time . i wouldnt beat yourself up about it . you will know when its real . you wont have to try , you wont have to be anyone you are not , you wont have to be rich or poor .and she will be driving you nuts wanting to be with you all the time . ringing ,giving you gifts ,wanting to sleep on you all the time her mobile phone will be full of your pictures. if you ever have to try and make a relationship happen or work at it so hard its pointless .. beemer18 Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 7/18/2009 8:52:18 PM   "Gentlemen, This is my final post. Thank you all for your insights, they have helped significantly." Why do guys say one thing and do another....say what you mean and mean what you say.....if not don't ever say this is my last post unless you mean it......... baron555 Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 7/19/2009 1:28:41 AM   hey are people with no real idea about love or relationship or women its why they come to a place like this to get advice I find it hard to take seriously a person who does not know about capitalizing and punctuation marks in a sentence. Rag'n'Bull Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 7/19/2009 11:03:38 AM   baron, Are you saying that you'd take him seriously even if he could spell and punctuate? P.S. Best to ignore the jerk, he only posts, indeed he only comes to this forum, to draw attention to himself. beemer18 Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 7/19/2009 11:45:18 AM   Baron...stay here long enough and you'll find a lot people you will not take seriously, makes you wonder a bit.......not to pick on aussies...but they can be a hard(to) read... Wat"s is so hard bout going bake and rereeding a poste too try to coreect any mestaks??? :-0 Kirkland Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 7/19/2009 3:30:39 PM   My tuppence worth:- I think a lot of what sams said about his Ukrainian girl was obsessive thinking. No blame for that. These gals can be very alluring. However he has an insightful view of relationships and Ukrainian women and I’m sure with this knowledge he’ll realise that this girls was a time waster. Again no blame for that…I was in the same boat a while ago. Love at first sight….there is some truth in this…for me… first time I saw her waiting at the airport the feeling I had was almost overwhelming….almost. So I believe for some guys this feeling of being overwhelmed in the moment can be construed as love. I’m a hard nut to crack and keep a level head thorough a relationship for reasons of self preservation. In my experience this is attractive to a woman as opposed to a needy “I love you” all the time. A lot of what sams says is very true and it points to the same old maxim I used in my fsu dating days…the women won’t leave their home…period. (how many guys on this forum live in fsu with their woman and how many live in the west with their woman) I know plenty fsu women who are hooked on having a foreign boyfriend. Women who have been on dating sites for years. This tell me one thing:- either they refuse to lower their expectations of finding Mr perfect…or they just love to be on the internet. dansing Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 7/19/2009 7:19:55 PM   and what you think finding a women has anything to do with spelling and puntuation . if you do your really clutching at straws . sams Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 7/20/2009 6:58:04 AM   OK, I will not be writing "this is my last post" again. I have a complete opposite view of the age difference issue and I have not seen a credible argument to bury that view. Its too important to stop here. I am assuming most of the guys on this forum who are seriously looking in the FSU are 40+. It seems all of you think the age difference is not an issue. If my view is right, then that means most of your are as deluded as I was with Natali. Bear confirms that it is abnormal to see local couples with large age differences(>10+). Next time you are there, observe and you will see the fact. On the rare ocassions you see them, the guy has a wife sitting at home. The man is a rich guy and is having a night out with his side dish. Regarding age, my conclusion was that local relationships are no different then the west. If you are loaded with money, or have some superior professional talent, or have the ageless looks of a Gere/Redford/Newman, or have the charisma of a Cruise, then you can have your pick with a low risk of being abused. Most of you are unlikely to have that superior talent, ageless looks, or that special charisma, otherwise you would not be looking in the FSU. If you had these characteristics, you will have superior women of all ages and intelligence throwing themselves at you in your home countries. I can only see two reason why the FSU woman wants you: 1) You are rich relative to the local average man. 2) Many of these women have an illusion of the west. They want to leave and believe they will arrive in the land of milk and honey. These reasons prompt them to meet you and if you are lucky, they fall in love with you. Problem is, both of these are the WRONG reasons to meet any man. So the love is based on a shaky foundation. I concluded that it is highly unlikely any relationship with an FSU girl with age difference more then 10 years will survive in the west: - I have already outlined the reasons why they have very strong family bonds. They also have very strong friendship bonds who support them through the BS they have to deal with in their countries. To break these bonds and start fresh in a strange and foreign country will require a strong and powerful love for a man. Relationships are very hard to keep going for the long term. This is a BIG mountain to overcome. - Back in the west, you are no longer a rich man compared to the locals. Your, young, hot FSU babe will have plenty of attention from guys much younger then you. Another BIG mountain to overcome. The average 40+ guy taking a young FSU girl back home is deluded if he thinks the relationship will last. IF you want it to last, live in the FSU. That is what I was prepared to do for Natali. But then again, based on the above logic, she only fell for you or is with you for the money.....this would eat at my soul............ Any which way I look at it, I have concluded maximum age difference should be 10 years. Ideal would be 5 years. Rag'n'Bull Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 7/20/2009 9:41:00 AM   sams, You are taking it upon yourself to presume a lot that 40+ year old guys all think that there is no age difference issue! Just, for starters, take the time to trawl the archives of this forum, here and other places this is an issue that has often been discussed in depth and, normally, with a number of different opinions. I, personally, started dating FSU ladies, in my then home domicile, some 12 years ago, getting in to the correspondence malarky some 11 years ago, internet some 9 years ago, and I can cast my mind back that when searching for ladies interested in a guy my age, or your age, or whoever's age, one finds themselves faced with profiles of ladies that, otherwise, would never be interested in me, you, or whoever taking in to consideration age. Many of such profiles are scammers, or agency marketing tools, but .... it only takes to date, person to person, one or two of these 'youngsters' to realise that it's never going to work before one realises that they need to look for a more mature lady. Nobody, I believe, has suggested that it is normal in FSU for such age difference relationships but they don't need to be the norm to actually exist, I can recall a Russian lady I dated some years ago, her ex (dead) Russian husband had been very significantly older than her and he hadn't been a wealthy guy either. Some, on this forum, will be aware that I used to chat, as a friend and perhaps over drinks, with dozens of these ladies (my wife worked as a Ukrainian agency interpreter) and I heard all such opinions, different opinions, of these ladies and there exist a percentage who (a) realise that they need to go for an older guy to get out of FSU or, (b) are fed up with being messed around, cheated on, by guys of their similar age and want to get out of that rat race and in to a more stable, older, environment. Think about it, when 'we' were younger, and perhaps as soon as we received our salary, we'd blow our money on alcohol, partying, going out, women and if there was an 'investment' in our lives it was probably our car that we may spend ridiculous amounts of money on also. Well younger FSU men are no different except that may may take it to more of an extreem and, as you have mentioned, spending their salary on women and not neccesarily the woman they have waiting for them at home. But, on the other hand, one point I find interesting, in my past experiences, of all the divorcees looking for a foreign guy, when providing reason(s) for their divorce, it always seemed to be, according to them, the fault of the man, for reasons as I have already mentioned, in my past experiences not one lady ever admitted to the divorce having been her fault or a mutual fault! When explaining 'age difference' to a guy previously I explained that to consider FSU dating to be a minefield. Now this field isn't very big and for equal ages one starts off with a minimal amount of mines in that field, for each year of difference in ages then more and more mines become added to that small field and then comes the time for the guy to attempt to cross that field. Now he might get his balls blown off at the first step, he might make it 90% of the way across before getting his balls blown off, indeed he might make it happily to the other side but for each increasing year of a difference in ages the chances of him making it happily to the other side become less and less. baron555 Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 7/20/2009 9:57:39 AM   I've never had any problem dating women here in the US. I started corrsponding with FSU women initially on a sort of whim and ended up meeting some very real ladies. One I clicked with and we corresponded and then met and became engaged. The hardest part for her coming here is leaving everything she has but our relationship is strong and she wants to be with me. She knows that we will visit back often and are already making plans for next year's return trip. She also knows that if I could find good paying work, I would move to be with her. I don't think the age difference is so cut and dried. Yes, in general 10 years sounds good (I personally break that rule.) but you also have another factor to factor into the equation. That is, the age of the lady. There is a big big difference between women aged 20-30, 30-40, and 40+. Each of these age groups has seen a very different life history than the next group. The 20-30 age group has grown up just like the same age group in the west. They know computers and media but do not have any life experiences (or at least none different than the same here in the west). The 30-40 age group grew up initially in the USSR and then during Perestroika which was very hard times for most FSU people. My SO remembers eating only potatoes and macaroni. Maybe they never married because of career choice, maybe they did and are now divorced, maybe they have a child. They have adult life experiences and know what they want or would like for their future. This group will yield the best chances if you want a serious relationship. The 40+ age goups grew up in the USSR and have essentially the same qualities as the 30-40 group except they are older and most likely are looking to settle for the last part of their life. So age difference combined with age group is a better measure for possible success. sams Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 7/20/2009 11:25:32 AM   Martin, I like your Minefield. Natali was 20 years younger and my balls are dangling on a power line somewhere in Simferopol. Even more painfully, my heart is dangling next to them. I can feel them nicely frying as we speak! Baron, Good point about the age group. Major factor in the equation. Hmmm...didn't expect such mild responses... Your Reply: Your name:   New Registration Password:   Forgot password?   refresh Code:   Russian brides > Main Forum > A Goodbye to my Ukrainian girl Part 1
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