PRE-NUP Agreements

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TimH

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	Send: 5/13/2004 9:16:10 PM

Your not really talking about Pre-Nups Man, but about wills and bequests, and thats not cynincal, cold or calculating like a Pre-Nup is. A will is a good thing to have becasue it assures that your wishes are adhered to, all a Pre-Nup does is cause miss trust and hurt !!

TimH

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	Send: 5/13/2004 9:16:58 PM

For a wil to work one has to die, for a Pre-Nup you only have to fall out, then you both live through the storm that follows !!!!

vihiker

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	Send: 5/14/2004 2:17:48 AM

This horse has been beat pretty hard, but I want to add my 2 cents. Maybe I am naive, but if my wife is gainfully employed, perhaps there will never be a need for a pre-nup, even if the marriage eventually fails. I want my wife to work. I believe that there is value in work and making a contribution. My fav girl is a chemist, but doesn't want to work in her field. Her parents are both chemists and forced it on her. She mentioned to me that she wants to be a landscape designer. I truly believe that people should do whatever makes them happy. However, if something should happen to me, or if the marriage doesn't work out, will she be able to support herself? I think it's important for her to be able to be financially independent. I don't want her to have to depend on me, in marriage or out of marriage. I want to support her choce of careers, and am happy to fund her education. But I feel like a parent whose child is in college and wants to study "art appreciation". I want her to be practical, but be happy with her choice too. Any suggestions?

Ptichka

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	Send: 5/14/2004 2:46:39 AM

landscape designer is a good choice to my mind, because at least (as I said earlier I speak only abou things I know) this field starts to develop. And it's not the single case when parents force their children to do things the parents want, and actually chemistry is not so popular (at least here), and many if not the majority of chemists have no work. And if your girl says that she liked landscape designing, why don't you give her a chance??? My parents are both engineers, and they wanted me to choose either this career or to work as an accountant or somebody like that to earn money. OK OK engineers don't earn much, but the accountants do, but they gave me the chance to choose. So I do what I enjoy:))))

www

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	Send: 5/14/2004 3:13:30 AM

hm...

southernman

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	Send: 5/14/2004 3:16:35 AM

Put the shoe on the other foot. If I were to pick up and move to another country and live with a woman that had most everything she needs and some. I leave my family, my job or business to live and marry a woman and then I am divorced and alone in a strange country with no family and friends or job. I do not even want to think about it. If you ask me to sign an agreement, there better be plenty in it for me or you can find another man. You don't think it will workout, do you?

slowgu

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	Send: 5/14/2004 3:25:47 AM

To me, pre-nups are anti-trust agreements. In essence, what you say to someone else, is that I trust you like I trust a fart, when I have diarrhea. Sorry for the analogy, but where is the trust in a document? There is none. That is why we have a pre-nup document. Why is there love? Because we trust someone. Why is there trust? Because we believe that our friend/love will not harm us. Why is there divorce? Because I/she are tired of the other not living up to standards. Why are there pre-nups? Because we don't trust. I'm sorry, but if I cannot trust another with what I want in (and of) of life, a piece of paper would be an insult to me, and more of an insult to her. I have been reduced to poverty, because I trusted. And yet, I pulled myself out of the pit. I will do so again, because what I hope for is greater than my memory of what I lost. I did not lose my hope of finding someone who upholds my trust.

TimH

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	Send: 5/14/2004 4:44:18 AM

Here here Slow !! Been there too mate, and yeah it sucked, but I still wouldnt lower my behaviour to want an "anti trust document" !! Its refreshing to know that despite what western women have done to many of us (and Russian women have done to a few, myself included) there is still a huge support Against these nasty ideas and "contracts" of marriage :o)

GLTALLTOAD

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	Send: 5/14/2004 1:02:29 PM

"What about a 75 yr old woman and a 77 yr old man getting married. Each has kids from a previous marriage. The woman has money that she wants to make sure goes to her kids after she dies.....etc etc" This case is for Estate Planning documents such as a Living Will or Living Trust....Both mean pretty much the same and have to do with distribution of assets when someone dies, not how their finances will be managed while they LIVE...that's what a Pre-nup agreement does. The age is irrelevant. You do not have to consider a prenup only when you're old. I have assets that I want to be inherited by my children, nephews and two parentless pseudo god-children I support in another state. part of those assets currently support them, as well. Now, TimH.....first and foremost, I suggest you stick your not so subtle insults where the sun doesn't shine. When anyone takes a closer look at my personal life and the amount of people I am able to help financially by being responsible, generous and productive....how in the world can anyone vilify me or anyone who has a similar situation to mine? You or anyone who demonizes pre-nups can give yourselves the luxury of name calling it all you want (anti-trust docs, etc) because you probably do not have a pot to piss in and have never accepted the responsibility to support or help anyone...and with that attitude, you never will. I am at a stage of my life where I can look around and enjoy seeing what I have created for my family, my children and my loved ones. Despite the many failures, disappointments and emotional/financial beatings I've taken along the way. Who the f**k are you, TimH, to call me names for wanting to preserve and protect the security and welfare I provide for them? Nothing and noone, that's what you are in the integrity and nobility radar screen. A while back in this thread Oleg hit in the nail by commenting a pre-nup does have room for provisions to the eastern wife for the years of marriage ('service' he called it) The new wife, eastern, western or extraterrestrial has done nothing to help create the wealth she is marrying into....and I am pretty sure she is accurately aware that she is marrying into a wealthy situation......dduuuhhh. Give me one common sense reason why I or anyone else should automatically give away half of my family's and loved ones' assets to someone who I did not even know existed while all these assets where being created..... If both spouses start piss poor, of course a pre-nup is irrelevant. Nothing there to protect. Yes, TimH, pre-nups were created originally by people with intelligent attornies to protect their material assets first and foremost. And can also be used to preserve the harmony most people seek to find in marriage. Specifically how they will treat each other, financially, emotionally, physically....etc etc. Most of you who are reluctant to discuss money or sex BEFORE marriage with your new women are fools...nothing less. Hypocritical fools at that, as well.... When will you tell your new wife what the household budget is for the month?...how many vacations can she expect to have with you yearly? ...How much money are you both planning to save regularly for retirement or college education for the kids (hers, yours, mutual)....How often are you going to have sex, what is acceptable practices or expectations 'under the covers'? .....How often can she expects you to send her to her home town to visit relatives?....endless list when you thing about it. That's why it takes at least a semester to to feel like marrying someone. Failing to talk about these things at length in advance is the recipe for marraige failure, not the pre-nup. A prenup is nothing more than putting both your binding signatures where your mouths are after talking, listening and agreeing to what you discuss. Amen....for now, at least

slowgu

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	Send: 5/14/2004 1:27:50 PM

think this is really romantic... THIS AGREEMENT MADE IN TRIPLICATE THIS _____ day of May, 2004. BETWEEN: ME ME of Anytown, This County, in the State of New York (hereinafter called "Me") - AND - FUTURE WIFE of FSU, This County, in the State of New York (hereinafter called "Future") PRE-NUPTIAL AGREEMENT WHEREAS the parties hereto are about to enter into marriage with each other on ____________________ and they desire to fix and determine by this Agreement the status, ownership and division of property, including future property, owned by either or both of them; AND WHEREAS the parties desire by this Agreement to provide for the settlement of their affairs under the marriage or upon annulment or dissolution of the marriage as setout herein; AND WHEREAS it is the parties desire and wish that this Agreement should apply to property, real or personal, owned by both of them or by each of them at the time this Agreement is entered into and such further property as shall be acquired hereafter; AND WHEREAS each party has disclosed to the other all of his or her estate, property and prospects for now and the future and each is satisfied that they are fully conversant with the property, estate and prospects of the other now and in the future; AND WHEREAS Me has children to which he wishes to leave his estate; AND WHEREAS the parties acknowledge that neither is under any duress or undue influence by the other and that they are voluntarily entering into this Agreement; AND WHEREAS each party has retained their own lawyer and has received independent legal advice regarding the terms of this Agreement. NOW THEREFORE in consideration of the upcoming marriage, and in consideration of the mutual love and affection each party bears for the other, and in consideration of the mutual promises and covenants contained herein, the parties agree as follows: DEFINITIONS 'Property' means all property and assets of whatsoever kind and nature, including but without limiting the generality of the foregoing, all real and personal property and all rights, titles, interest, estates and claims to or in real and personal property. 'Separation' denotes a period of time during which the parties are living separate and apart and to which either party intends to live separate and apart from the other. 'Child of the Marriage' includes any child under the age of 18 years born to the parties of this Agreement prior to or during the marriage, or who is legally adopted by the parties, or who may otherwise be defined as a child of the marriage by virtue of either this Agreement or law. ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS Each party acknowledges and agrees that: The foregoing recitals are true. The laws of the State of New York shall govern the interpretation of this Agreement, notwithstanding that the parties may from time to time reside outside of the State of New York or that one or both of them may now or hereafter own property outside of the State of New York. PROPERTY The separate property owned by each party upon the execution of this Agreement, however and whenever acquired, including but without restricting the generality of the foregoing, any increase in value of the property, any income derived from such property, and any property acquired with the income of such property or from the proceeds of sale or exchange of such property, shall be owned and managed solely by such party at all times and shall remain the separate property of such party after the execution of this Agreement, with no claim by the other party upon separation or otherwise. Any property purchased or acquired solely by either party after the date of marriage shall be the sole property of the person so acquiring it without claim by the other party hereto. Neither party shall be responsible for debts or liabilities incurred in the name of the other party alone, but each party shall be responsible for his or her proportionate share of the liabilities incurred by the parties jointly. Where liabilities are jointly incurred, in the absence of agreement to the contrary, each party shall be deemed to be liable for one half of the same. Each party agrees to indemnify the other party for any loss or liability, including costs on a solicitor-client basis, which either might incur in relation to the other party's debts. For the purposes of clarification only, in the event the parties separate and one party takes an asset acting as security for a debt, the person taking the asset shall be responsible for the payment of the debt. Ownership of real property shall be determined by the title of the property. Real property held solely in the name of one party shall be the property of that party alone and the other party shall have no claim to an interest in or to the said property. Property held in the names of both parties as joint tenants shall be deemed to be the property of each of the parties and each shall be entitled to fifty (50%) percent of the net equity of the property. Property held in the names of both parties as tenants in common shall be deemed to be owned by each party according to the interest design

olegnay

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	Send: 5/14/2004 1:32:43 PM

I agree with GLTALLTOAD. When I got married I had nothing, my wife had nothing so we did not care about pre-nap or whateverelse. I think someone who has nothing to loose doesn't think about it, and can cry that this is antitrust, call names... Life is life. as I already mentioned, Lady should get her part of the pre-nap done too fro her security. very full of arguments subject, great for our forum.

GLTALLTOAD

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	Send: 5/14/2004 1:40:04 PM

Slow, I am preparing you a triple shot of Juan Valdez expresso brew to wake you up, mate... If you want only romance in your life, stay UNmarried. Marriage is in and by itself the biggest financial contract you will enter in your life.....with romance in it that may die or not over time, depending largely on how both spouses treat it along the way. Marriage will alter that way you spend and earn money, the way you get taxed, the way you save (or not), the things you buy, the things you cherish (no more hanging frames of dogs playing poker in the living room) ...And don't get me started with the changes to your sex life and the things you took for granted up to this point, lol... If you're not prepared to discuss, listen and agree (in writing) to the multitude of legalities that marriage entails, you may be better off waiting until you understand it clearly. A wise old womans advice: "enter marriage with your eyes wide open, and go through it with your eyes close until you reach what you're both aiming for"

GLTALLTOAD

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	Send: 5/14/2004 1:44:18 PM

Slow, By the way, the pre-nup format you copied above must have been written by someone with no sense of humor whatsoever, lol. Remember that a compatible sense of humor between both spouse is probably the most effective tool for them to deal with the visisitudes of marriage life. All in all, what I'm trying to say is that we must be prepared to accept the serious part of marriage, not just the romantic fun ones.

slowgu

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	Send: 5/14/2004 1:55:45 PM

Ok, 70% of it got clipped, but I think the romance is still evidentiary. Whereas I do agree with GL on certain points, travel, retirement, and humping, are not items that can be laid (pun intended) forth in advance. Most states have provisionary exemptions for properties, in the event of divorce, of items that were acquired prior to marriage. A will, declared prior to marriage will cover those items. You can generally place an addendum to the will after marriage, to cover the spouse's inheritance. In the event of impending inheritance to yourself, request that the will of the person bequeathing it to you, states implicitly that it is your property, and not a common property. This generally absolves you from having to forfeit 50% of it. As for me, my divorce probably cost me a quarter million. But, what the hey - I'll try again, and take the risks. There is no humour in a binding legal contract, nor any love. And yeah, GL, it wasn't until the land sharks (i.e. lawyers) were through with me that I learned what it was I didn't need to lose. BTW - I am enjoying this argument. :))

GLTALLTOAD

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	Send: 5/14/2004 2:15:14 PM

I know I have by far the funniest, borderline absurdly optimistic prenup ever written in California, but it has been validated by two southern california judges with over 30 years of tenure between them.... I think the reluctance of many to even consider these things is their inner cowardice to discuss it with their future spouses. Many men are simply afraid to discuss sex and money with their wives....until it is too late, the farm is burnt and the horses escaped. I'm enjoying too...although I could do without the personal insults flying all over the site.

TimH

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	Send: 5/14/2004 2:30:08 PM

I dont care what arguments anyone puts forward for these disgusting contracts. I have Much to lose, but Im buggered if I am going to lose the lady I love by asking her to sign such a degrading document, and proving to her in one act that though I say I love her, I dont love her enough !!! And I dont trust her either !!!! Im bowing out of this thread now because all I am reading is the same old bull for support of these vile western ideas !! And its boring the cr*p out of me now, because I will Never agree that they are a good idea. The only one they protect is the greedy bstard with the money, they DO NOT protect the women, in our cases, one bit !!! I will NEVER ask for or sign such a contract with any woman, if I dont trust her I have no business marrying her in the first place !!

TimH

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	Send: 5/14/2004 2:31:47 PM

Cowardis be buggered !!! Its called Love and Respect, and I have sh*t loads of both !!!!

Ptichka

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	Send: 5/15/2004 4:14:34 AM

GLTALLTOAD I'm very surprised that you share the same silly definition as some men here that there is no romance in marriage...that marriage is a hard work and no weekends, that if you want to have rest in marriage you have to have a lover...I think that it's all a wrong...I know many couples who lived 30-50 years together and still love each other, and they go together for walks, the go out together...isn't that beautiful??? I think this is what real marriage means. And one more thing made me laugh very much!!! You want to discuss with your future wife how many times a week to have sex?? Do you make a schedule for sex too??? I think that's something absurd:)) Sorry if you think that I want to offend you, but it's only my point of view:))))

Ptichka

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	Send: 5/15/2004 4:23:25 AM

Had to add that schedules kill the romance, romance has to be spontaneous, when it's on schedule it's not romance...it's something strange and awful...I vote against romance on schedule.

nasfan6

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	Send: 5/15/2004 4:28:31 AM

Damn one thing beating a dead horse, now were putting spurs to the poor bastard! Here's one to toss in the fray. It was all my damn sweat and blood I put into a business, the ex hated everything about the business up to the divorce then she wanted half. That's as hypocritical as a pre-nup! Hell if your worried about your money, just go out and get a high class hooker and be done with it, she'll take the money and might even give you a kiss. Plus a slick attorney can pierce a pre-nup. It's all bullshit. It's funny how a promise and a man's word used to mean something. Anytime you put something in writing all you are asking is to have it used against you in a court of law. Kill all the attorneys and kill them tonight.

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