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	Create New Topic   My Posts   My forum buddies   Invite friends   Private messages Russian brides > Main Forum > Protesters update Author Post shaggy47435 Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 12/14/2004 8:07:16 PM   Many people make this mistake. The same with freedom of religion. Many believe it means freedom from and not freedom of. People forget that the individual has the right to choose. Of course some may be bulled but it is because they want to be. Sorry just can't make that streatch here. GLTALLTOAD Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 12/14/2004 8:39:53 PM   The need for freedom FROM religion comes as a consequence of the never ending attempts by religious groups and doctrines to force feed us their own myopic self serving agenda. I think we better leave the religious analogies and debates out of this part of the thread. Too much shit has flown in the past when religion was brought up as a debatable topic. toad shaggy47435 Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 12/14/2004 9:04:01 PM   I agree toad but it is much deeper than just the religious issue. I am not pushing religion but my example is like the removal of the ten commandments from courthouses and such. Many people forget that our code of laws borrows much from these values as well as the roman ideals. I still believe that in themselves they are basic and really found mostly in all religions only worded differently. As much common sense as any kind of docturn. wtrav02 Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 12/14/2004 9:42:20 PM   GL TALL TOAD, I expressed my opinion, and you don't agree with my point. So what? Don't be misled, I am not asking for your approval, so let's cut the "nonesense" language. shaggy47435, this country was founded by Christians, but does not belong only to Christians, and then there are so many different expressions of Christianity. This country was built on diversity, so diversity must be respected more than anywhere else in the world. I agree with what GL TALL TOAD said above about Christian groups pushing their agenda. It just happens that these groups were suffocating under the Clinton administration, they couldn't get anything done, and now they feel they can change everybody's life according to their own phanatic dogma. Of course politicians like Bush love to have such captive groups of people, religious phanatics at their disposal during elections in particular, and it doesn't require much effort other than being shown on TV during Sunday service and talking vaguely about his faith. IceChaos Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 12/14/2004 10:01:23 PM   Christian groups weren't suffocating under Clinton. Clinton ran around to Black churches all the time singing praise the lord, etc. Al Gore did the same thing and he looked really silly, but Black people ate it up. This country was not founded on the idea of diversity or at least the way that it has been sold these days. As we have become more diverse we have become weaker. Ice shaggy47435 Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 12/14/2004 10:11:16 PM   I was speaking more along the laws being based on such. Not the country per say but the founding fathers all agreed that God was part of the plan and the granter of our said "rights". I was not trying to ruffle feathers or get anything started just observations in general. shaggy47435 Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 12/14/2004 10:12:38 PM   As far as Christian groups pushing their agenda...they are not pushing any harder than the other special interest groups. shaggy47435 Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 12/14/2004 10:16:39 PM   A thought on persecution and intimidation brings the Christians to the front though as far as take your freedom to express yourself somewhere else. It has been pushed out of most public places in society probably more so than the artist or political variant groups. As I believe it should have the same protections as any other free speach but you will find it does not. wtrav02 Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 12/15/2004 10:04:43 AM   IceChaos, by conservative Christian groups I meant the evangelical Christians, the Amish, Mormons, etc. who live in concentrated areas in OH, PA, UT, and elsewhere. Their leaders came on TV and said they suffocated under the Clinton administration and the last four years have been Paradise for them. When few people have so much influence on so many fanatics, that is something to worry about. I agree with you diversity has been used as a fad word the last years, but diversity when used the right way is an asset. This country was built by many different nationalities and people of all backgrounds. shaggy47435, I'm with you, I understand what you're saying. I think though stripping existing historic monuments of articles of specific religious importance is preposterous as they carry historic value. But, putting the Ten Commandments on a stone in front of a government building I think it's not right as there are many citizens who do not go by the Ten Commandments. shaggy47435 Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 12/15/2004 10:28:29 AM   Yes this is true. I think though that all religions share these same basic beliefs as well as many atheistic peoples. Like anything else I think they have been labled as religious when in fact they are common beliefs of almost all people with any respect of human life and dignity. There are a few of them that get broke allot but I think everyone even those doing it would like to think that they apply even to them...lol. Thanks for your support and comments. I agree not any government building. I still think that in the courts it has specific meanings other than those of religious nature but understand the grey area of our modern views toward such. shaggy47435 Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 12/15/2004 10:31:23 AM   As far as diversity yes it is overly abused today but you are right the diversity of the American people is what has made this country the great nation that it is today. Our culture and beliefs are a mix of the best the world had to offer mixed with that yearning to be a free people. I say we got the best the world had to offer. The shame is making it a required mix. Like anything else in nature it should be left to mix itself. I don't think we know enough to say how many of any type should be the "right mix". wtrav02 Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 12/15/2004 1:47:35 PM   shaggy47435, I mostly agree what your points on religious symbols being demonstrated at public places. They are generic enough expressions of what should represent most people. It just is that the diverse society that we live is dominated populationwise by people of Christian beliefs and demonstration of Christian traditions in places that represent all American people can be perceived the wrong way by those minorities that are not Christians. It is a very subtle issue. On the diversity issue, I do agree that we should not force the "right mix", but again we need to ensure that people of all backgrounds are given equal opportunities. Our society is still biased against specific minorities especially those of color and religion. There is no surprise the traditional southern states represent the solid base of the red map of the United States. That is simply because of racism and let me explain this. By no means I am accusing all people of the South for racism, I have friends in the South and only good things I have to say about them. It's just the centuries of seggregation of the minorities that has resulted in a bias in the society. In situation like this, we need to have legislation to protect the weak and ensure all people are given the same opportunity in the American dream. shaggy47435 Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 12/15/2004 2:36:52 PM   You will never get me to believe that not everyone has those same opportunities. Many simply choose not to take advantage of them. I also believe that the reason many forms of racism still exsist is the political need for them too. The most racist people I have ever encountered are those supposedly fighting for the rights of the oppressed. In many cases it is so much more a two way street than it is presented in modern media. I simply think any legistlation to give any specific rights not already granted in our constituion to all americans we will do nothing but harm and continue the legasy. But thats pretty much my 2 cents worth. I will add that much of the ignorance and lack of motivation I believe are directly related to the failing families and idea that government should provide these opportunities to the underprivilaged. Kind of breeds on itself as the more underprivilaged you are the more aid you will receive. shaggy47435 Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 12/15/2004 2:42:42 PM   But again except for the mentally ill there is really no need for anyone in america to suffer or go without. There are those that will not except help out of principal or need not to here the words of someons god but help is there and programs are available. I had nothing starting my life out and worked my way through college and have been completely wiped out twice once leading to divorce and bankruptcy but if you have a will and a little bit of gumption you can make it without a law to give you an unfair advantage over someone else. There simply is no need for them. We need to act on the laws we have in place to correct any such racism or unfair practices not make quotas or token positions to look good on political paper. Ok so maybe a couple bucks worth...lol wtrav02 Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 12/15/2004 6:00:53 PM   shaggy47435, I started my life with not much help either and built up myself first and my financial account next. I like the European system very much, especially French social welfare and culture. I believe that certain groups of people should be protected. I believe that it is the role of the government to ensure equal opportunity for all. I don't think this is a matter of letting it happen by itself because it won't happen. It is in human nature to be greedy and ignore those who suffer. I don't believe we have legislation to ensure equal opportunity and I would like to see the government at some point establish that (sertainly it ain't gonna happen the next four years). This is my opinion, yours is very different, but I respect it. I believe we are looking to accomplish the same outcome, but in a very different fashion. shaggy47435 Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 12/15/2004 6:11:57 PM   yes you are right. I just know that in many cases the new laws don't help anymore. The same people that can't aford the atorney to use the constitution won't be able to afford the atorney to use the new laws...But again when those protections discriminate against others is it really any better?....I'm done!...lol nasfan6 Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 12/15/2004 9:10:45 PM   Well fella's if your looking for the government to do something for you, just look at the US postal service and the social security administration and she how f**ked up that is. Government shouldn't be involved in social engineering of any sort. Actually the more limited the government is the better off all people are. Also, it was proven during one administration that tax cuts lead to the highest charitable contributions in the last 75 years. So good people tend to be charitable when big brother doesn't have their hands in our pockets. Also, why use social engineering, charity begins at home and so does responsibility. Instead of creating laws that punish the people who do right, why not enforce the ones that are already there for the ones that do wrong? And reward the ones that do right. I sent my daughter to a private school, a catholic high school and paid taxes for a school my daughter never attended or used. The reason, well the demands on her education. It seems remarkably funny that she only made the honor roll twice at Marion High School and the Deans list every quarter at IU? Makes me wonder about the direction of public education, or the lack of demand they put on students, or lowering standards so everyone excells. Well that is wrong. Social engineering doing our children injustice. Well anything Uncle Scam gets involved in is a clusterfu*k waiting to happen. No matter which party is in control. To quote a line from the John Birch Society, Less Government, More personal responsibility and with God's help a better world. The key words more personal responsibility, we are not a nation of victims, so we shouldn't treat people as such. Later Mike shaggy47435 Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 12/16/2004 8:11:36 AM   right on! Private organizations do a better job helping people than the government. Same here I work in public education but my children go to private school. I know whats going on in the public sector and there are some good folks trying but your right they are failing in the worst way. But in their defence many are trying to raise children as well as teach them. It is sad. wtrav02 Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 12/16/2004 8:51:14 AM   So basically you say that good education should only be available to those children whose parents can afford the bill? I don't have kids, but I don't mind paying local taxes for the improvement of schools. If public schools are not good enough, then we need to improve the public school system, not strip poor kids off the opportunities. There are certain things in life including education and health care that everyone deserves same access regardless of pocket book and family background. You're still wondering why American highschool students rank lower than students in European and Asian nations? Because the the foreign systems do not discriminate kids. The winner of the prestigious Siemens invention award in engineering this year was a student from a CA public highschool, you know the ones that are for kids with no future. shaggy47435 Member send PM   block PM add to buddies Send: 12/16/2004 9:28:09 AM   No I am saying that our public education system is suffering do to a focus on raising children instead of educating them. People seem to think that school should raise our children without the ability to teach any real values or morals. Parents today think that government should raise there children for them. This is the problem with the welfare and other government controled systems. They simply breed dependance and not independance. Parents need to raise their children at home and let the schools educate them. To live in our society not to pass a national stadardized dumby test. We need to refocus our efforts. Our government is here to ensure our freedoms not to provide our lifestyles. As far as your public student there are many that do well but it is not the school that drives these individuals but I bet their families and upbringing. Again I work in public education and it is very easy to see the money and resources going to political correctness and aid to small minority of students and not the whole. It would be nice if it was a level playing field for all but no amount of legistlation will make it so. It starts at home and if they do not get it there they will not get what they need in schools. I came from a public school and I feel I had a great education but I am also saying that it was my upbringing that made it so. You can have the best school in the world but with its hads tied to the modern politics there will be children that suffer and do not excell. You can not stadardize education. Your Reply: Your name:   New Registration Password:   Forgot password?   refresh Code:   Russian brides > Main Forum > Protesters update
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