true_nerd -- thanks for your input. Yes, train rides are in my future. But short 'hops'. Only in Moscow long enough to change planes. Still debating on a trip to Sochi. All depends on the weather. Plan to hike in the southern Caucuses Range. But do not have any set plans on exactly where we will be every day. Just travelling around. After visit to mom and family we are exploring. Some days are planned -- but may change.
To me those symbols next to your avatar are lavender. And are they true latin?
"Unlike other forms of theft, money in a scam isn't taken by force. It's given willingly"
If I send payment upfront for mail order goods that the vendor never intended to supply me with then that's theft even though noone picked my pockets or used any kind of "force". In english law at least "force" is not a necessary condition for theft, merely dishonest intent.
Actually a scam is perpetrated when someone who sends the money is getting something in return for less than it's true market value. If something is worth a 100K and you can buy it for 10k I would be wary of that transaction. That's exactly what happens here. Not that these deals don't happen but it's not often.
In this instance where many guys find themselves in, the purchase of affection and beauty has no price, thus the scam. The thinking is below waist level. The beauty is the attraction. Guys trying to buy something that is not purchasable is the scammers lawful prey.
There is no reason why under Gods green earth that money should be involved period. The economical situation many of these women live in their country was there before we made contact and will be there long after we are gone. There is absolutely no reason to contribute to their day to day living expenses.None! Then guys fall for the, well you don't love me or care for me enough to help out. Really? My question would be, what would you do if I wasn't here?
I even fell prey to this regarding dental work, my unwillingness to learn about medical procedures in the FSU. I tried to buy something for less than the market value and quality and it came back to bite me a year later after she had her root canals,implant done and bridge put in. What it would have cost me would have been 4 times the amount I would have had to pay with copays and deductibles here in the states. All I would have had to do was call my buddy NeonRed and he could have filled me in on the inferior work in the FSU, he had seen it many times first hand in Russia and in Naples Fl.
True_nerds input is not valid, if she believed in that hard fast rule she wouldn't be living with a guy in the states, what was wrong with her local guys? Along with it's hard to be conned out of money unless someone is willing to make money part of the relationship? Well if that's the case then many guys here don't have a leg to stand on when they talk about their stories of being scammed and crying about it. You can't have it both ways.They made money an issue in the relationship by giving, thinking it will cement the relationship further. Nonsense. I will stand by my comment no self respecting woman in the FSU will ask for money for their day to day living expenses, or for that matter anything else. They have a network of friends and family that helps them out in times of financial difficulties, it's the nature of their culture. Also many of them are industrious enough to create extra income, no different than we are here. They know how to live under difficult financial circumstances because the opportunity isn't there like it is in many other countries.
I have debated the Pre-nup issue in the past. Just search it in the forum. If you need a pre-nup then there is something in the back of one's mind that the relationship isn't as solid as they may think. I didn't require my wife to sign a pre-nup, what was the point, if I would have wanted her to do so, then my relationship wasn't worth the paper a pre-nup is written on. If your worried about protecting your assets don't get married.
It is all about common sense and educating yourself on the process here. I still advise guys to spend time reading the forum for 2 or 3 weeks before posting. Many of the questions will be answered that they don't need to ask. What amazes me is many things are regurgitated over and over here and still guys don't get it. There are not that many scams, but there are variations on themes.
@ Devilmaycare, you seem to have misread the sentence you quoted. Please note the word 'other', as in 'other' forms of theft (thereby stating that scams ARE theft, even though they don't use force, differentiating them from other forms).
@ Nasfan. Don't you think you're ignoring the taxi/interpreter/apartment/up front agency fee scams (and a bunch of others, in fact)? Unless one has a thorough understanding of prices over there (which I've found vary wildly between locations) AND has a flawless grasp on a potential lady's intentions (and there's much advice on here for people to travel within three months of contact), there is plenty of scope for someone to be scammed without necessarily handing a woman cash. To say that it's all down to rampant gullibility is a little simplistic, isn't it?
I only mentioned pre-nups to highlight something it's easy to forget. Gold digging girls aren't a uniquely FSU phenomena.
Muzzy
I'm not ignoring anything. With the infomation available why would anyone use an agency for anything. There is contact information on this site alone for interpretors, hotels and apartments and personal drivers and taxi's. The information is here. You want a personal driver in kiev and Mariupol I can help. Ask others here or on other sites about information. A guy who doesn't do research in this is setting himself up. Traveling in three months of contact isn't etched in stone. Travel when you feel it's right. Many people didn't do that, that just someones opinion. Research is the key.
This isn't the dark ages of technology anymore. The information is on the internet.
My questions
Why Use an agency
Why Use an agencys services
Why use an agencys interpretor
Why use an agencys apartment
The above things are all that you should be handling yourself. This isn't some mystical dark foreing land you are traveling tool
I wonder, whatever happened to marylin? Ragingbull you sly dog... ;)
nasfan6 -- keep in mind many who discover or are lead to some site to FSU women are totally ignorant of what goes on. I know I was. But I must say that I picked out a scam before I ever heard the word. But there are many who think it is just another dating site much like match.com, yahoo or whatever 'meet women' site they have experienced in the past. Many do not know they are targets. And many do not have the advice of others who are in the know. And perhaps mostly, they are sheepish in that they are looking to another land for a lady companion. It was purely by chance that I came across this forum. I had no idea. But I did know that something funny was gong on when I first logged into a site and started getting email messages from smoking hot young babes even before I put any information up what-so-ever. so perhaps there are those who fall into the 'lust' factor of it. and think or believe that these women are desparate and will marry anyone for the good life. unfortunately it cannot be broadcast coast to coast that the vast majority of these women are on the take. or at least there are agencies on the take. we can only hope they find out sooner rather than later. and sometimes they are introduced to it and get their head slapped. or the come into the 'forum' and get the shit slapped out of them. but if that what it takes...
oh - to continue, some people continually get the shit slapped out of them yet constantly argue about it and try to defend themselves. and try to reason that which cannot be confused with reasonable behaviour.
I agree with you but, only with regards to apartments, I don't believe you're making it clear:
When you say don't use an agency for an apartment I'm guessing you're referring to don't use a dating agency, rather than an accommodation/apartment agency, for an apartment.
But when Googling for apartments on the web 75% of apartments are available via dedicated apartment agencies, bugger all available directly with apartment owner(s), thus it's OK to book via an apartment agency but NOT a dating agency.
The other 'rip off' they've jumped on to is mobile phone or sim card rental, don't believe a word of it, when one gets there just but a sim card for a few dollars and have done with it!
"it's OK to book via an apartment agency but NOT a dating agency"
Great advice. The dating agency wanted $120 USD per day for a two room apartment. My gf insisted it was a good deal. Apparently, they had her call the hotels to see comparable prices. The hotels included a booking fee of 25%-50%. I protested. I got it down to $100 per day. It wasn't a great price, but acceptable.
I was by myself when I was about to return to the US at Boryspil Hotel. My gf asked how I got the hotel so cheap at $65 USD single. I explained to her about the booking fee.
RB if your girlfriend insisted 120 per day for an apartment was a good deal then ask her how much momma rents hers for.
I can tell you I rented an apartment in Kerch for 5 dollars a day. Procured by my at the time girlfriend.
I second that advice from Kirkland above...many times I rented an apartment in Kharkov and Dnipropetrovsk while visiting ladies,and through dealing direct with the owners never paid more than $10 a day,some were available for $5 but I usually opted for those with a bit more space.
Centaur! Do not call ragingbull a fool! Please. You can think what you want. But by doing so it will create a mess of posts that r-b will have to address. Not have to , but will. Leave the guy alone already.
Just so I can make sure I understand you properly, what you're saying is:
1: There is sufficient information on the internet to ensure that nobody who is sensible can be conned
2: There is sufficient information on this forum to ensure that nobody who is sensible can be conned
3: Falling prey to any kind of scam can only be the result of neglecting to do the research that is easily possible, or ignoring the research that one has done.
Is that me he's calling a fool? This is the first time I have seen Centaur. He must be an impersonation of someone. I don't believe the nit picking. This time, it is on whether or not I got a good deal on apartments. I did send my gf the money. After she decided on the apartment, I didn't see the need for bickering or insisting that we move to another place.
I have read here and on the internet that $85 is a good price for an apartment in Kiev in the middle of town. My gf got it for $100 through the agency going down from $120. It was a large two bedroom apartment with a kitchen, fridge, microwave and it is walking distance to the shops and the park with the big statue (Whatever you call that place). It wasn't a great price. I knew that because I did scour the internet for prices. Does the price go much lower? Remember, this was a year ago.
Good advice is to separate the woman from her agency. We were visited by a few of my gf's friends. She told the price to her friends and she tried to justify from them that it was a good price. I talked with the agency manager. She claimed she was my gf's best friend. I don't think so. That was the first and last time I heard from her. I did complain to my gf that her profile was still in AOB about a month after my Ukraine visit, but it was tough for her to get a hold of the agency. It took another couple of weeks.
Muzzy, you have it correctly. Being an athlete from days gone by I remember a quote from a great coach named Vince Lombardi, that I have on the wall in my office and I try to use it in my everyday life. "By failing to prepare, you are preparing to fail."
I remember one of my first posts here and I asked what is the "primer" for this little journey. TimH a fellow Brit of yours answered me and said, spend a couple of weeks reading the forum. Read all you can read in that time and if you have questions ask it on the forum and PM me if you like. Many folks here I give credit to my success. TimH and Ptichka were great contributors. Too bad there isn't a Ptichka here now for you guys. Also, Gladdie, Thunder, DaleE, Worldtrav02, Neonred, Tradman, I know there is more, but I can't recall them all. Each had a little bit towards my education on this process. Is the process 100% fool proof. Nothing in life is that.
Though when thoroughly prepared the chances of being scammed are minimal. When money is not involved int he equation, then the chances of getting scammed is minimal. Expensive gifts are not necessary in a good relationship. I never used agency services beyond the writing stage here and I used Fiance.com.
I communicated with my wife about meeting in Kiev without the use of an agency translator. One of her friends was fluent and we communicated that way in phone talks. That was why I used the Sherbourne guest house in the beginning, they had one 24 hours a day. We didn't need one because we communicated via a dictionary and electronic translator, which created some great laughter. Then I found out from the Sherbourne that at the university in kiev had many students willing to be a translator for a mere 5 bucks an hour.
Also Dittus gave me a ladys number to contact in Kiev who gave tours of the city in her car and she was really inexpensive and did a great tour. I have all this information, just like many other guys here have this information. I'm still in contact with Dittus, Neon, Jetson and we get together often. This is doable without getting scammed. Some is preparation and some is gut feeling. If it doesn't feel right for any reason, move on. It's the guys who think they are smarter than the culture there that get burned.